I am so excited to be teaching my first online course! Learn more and sign up below!

https://www.eeglearn.com/wwb

There are so many contradictory ideas about what it means to be healthy. Diet culture and the weight-loss industry will have you believing that you need to work out every day and restrict your calorie intake in order to be the best version of yourself. In this course, we cover topics such as why diets ultimately don’t work, how fat phobia has impacted our society, how to become an intuitive eater, and how to avoid falling into dieting and eating disorder traps that society has set up for us. This course is for you if you:

-are burnt out from trying diet after diet

-are a parent who wants to make sure diet culture isn’t harming your child

-are a therapist who is looking for continuing education credits (CEUs)

-are a mental health provider who works with people with eating disorders

You have two course options to choose from: A 3-Session Pathway and a 4-Session Pathway. Both includes three general lectures on the topics above. The 4-Session pathway is designed for existing neurofeedback providers. Details about each pathway can be found below.

General Sessions

September 22, September 29, and October 6, 2022

6:00 PM – 8:00 PM ET

Additional Neurofeedback Session

This session is designed for existing Nuro feedback providers to take what they learned in the first three sessions and apply it to their clinical work. We will discuss, in-depth, the theory and progression of working with clients and eating issues or disorders using neurofeedback. We will go over common qEEG findings and specific protocols.

October 10, 2022

4:00PM – 6:00 PM ET

This course entitles you to 6 or 8 CE credit hours if you purchase the CE add-on. You will be offered the add-on product when checking out. The number of CEs available will depend on whether you choose to sign up for the fourth session.

Early bird prices are valid:

August 19, 2022 to September 9, 2022

The post Episode 109: Holding You in the Light with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

https://www.eeglearn.com/wwb

There are so many contradictory ideas about what it means to be healthy. Diet culture and the weight-loss industry will have you believing that you need to work out every day and restrict your calorie intake in order to be the best version of yourself. In this course, we cover topics such as why diets ultimately don’t work, how fat phobia has impacted our society, how to become an intuitive eater, and how to avoid falling into dieting and eating disorder traps that society has set up for us. This course is for you if you:

-are burnt out from trying diet after diet

-are a parent who wants to make sure diet culture isn’t harming your child

-are a therapist who is looking for continuing education credits (CEUs)

-are a mental health provider who works with people with eating disorders

You have two course options to choose from: A 3-Session Pathway and a 4-Session Pathway. Both includes three general lectures on the topics above. The 4-Session pathway is designed for existing neurofeedback providers. Details about each pathway can be found below.

General Sessions

September 22, September 29, and October 6, 2022

6:00 PM – 8:00 PM ET

Additional Neurofeedback Session

This session is designed for existing Nuro feedback providers to take what they learned in the first three sessions and apply it to their clinical work. We will discuss, in-depth, the theory and progression of working with clients and eating issues or disorders using neurofeedback. We will go over common qEEG findings and specific protocols.

October 10, 2022

4:00PM – 6:00 PM ET

This course entitles you to 6 or 8 CE credit hours if you purchase the CE add-on. You will be offered the add-on product when checking out. The number of CEs available will depend on whether you choose to sign up for the fourth session.

Early bird prices are valid:

August 19, 2022 to September 9, 2022

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: Hello, everybody. I am back. Well, I mean, I guess technically I didn’t go anywhere, [00:00:30] but I know I’ve been putting out episodes every week, except the beginning of the month of August. I skipped because I was very overwhelmed and I was getting ready to go away on vacation. And then since then, I have been putting out pre-recorded episodes, so they are episodes that had been recorded earlier in the summertime, so it feels like it’s been forever since I’ve actually sat down and recorded a podcast [00:01:00] and that is for a very good reason. And one of those reasons is that I, like I said, was on vacation. I went to Fiji, which I’m so excited to talk about.

Alyssa Scolari: I know when I have talked to people here in my regular life, they’re like, “Oh my gosh, that’s so far.” And I guess it is, or it isn’t, depending on where you live in the world. But I live in the United States on the Eastern coast, [00:01:30] so it was really, really far for us. We crossed the International Dateline. It was like 30 plus hours of travel, just to go one way, so we were really traveling for two weeks. We stayed there for seven days, but between all of the traveling, we were really gone for about two weeks. And man, I really needed it. I don’t think I even realized how [00:02:00] much I needed it until I went.

Alyssa Scolari: It was a, I guess, six hour flight to get to Los Angeles and then it was a 10 and a half hour flight to get to Fiji. But then once we got to Fiji, we had to take, because Fiji is made up of, I think it’s about 333 [00:02:30] islands, so you can go to any of the islands in Fiji. And so we landed on the main island where the airport is and then we took one of those little puddle jumper planes to get to the island and it was the coolest thing I have ever done.

Alyssa Scolari: When I say a little plane, I mean it held six people. That was [00:03:00] it. And the pilot, I could reach out and touch him. He was sitting right in front of me and we were low enough that you could see everything and the water there is just the most beautiful blue I have ever seen in my life. It was the most amazing thing. Once I got over my fear of, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to die in this thing.” Because I was fairly certain, I was going down.

Alyssa Scolari: So we took a puddle jumper plane over to the island of Yasawa [00:03:30] and once we landed, which it’s not like there’s not an airport on this island. It’s literally because the island that we stayed on I think is only about a mile wide, so there’s in the middle of the jungle because the whole island is the jungle and the beach, there’s just a little strip of grass and that is the landing strip. So, we touched down on this little strip of grass and [00:04:00] we then took a car ride, or a van ride, through the jungle, on a dirt road, to get to the resort. So needless to say, between layovers and just the distance, it was exhausting. But when I tell you it was life-changing, I don’t even know where to begin.

Alyssa Scolari: So many people have asked me when I’ve told them, like why [00:04:30] Fiji? If all the places you could go, why Fiji? And the answer to that is, I was always going to Fiji, one way or another. My whole life, my heart has been set on Fiji. Please don’t ask me why. I have never seen a movie where I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I want to go to Fiji.” I’ve never really seen anything that has made me want to go to Fiji, but for [00:05:00] some reason that has always been on my heart and I really wanted to go for our honeymoon, but we could not afford it in the slightest. So, we just decided, “Hey, this is my dream and we are going to save up and we are going to go.” And we did.

Alyssa Scolari: For those of you who don’t know this, well actually I’m sure none of you know this about me. I am a massive tropical [00:05:30] fish lover. We had a tropical fish tank. It was like sixty-five gallons, I think. So, it was pretty big and we had all of the salt water fish. We had it for a few years. We had to get rid of it, unfortunately, and bring the fish back to the store because our house was just entirely too small and our dogs were a little too rambunctious and I was afraid that they were [00:06:00] going to run into the tank. But it is a hobby of mine, not necessarily keeping them. I do want to keep them again someday and I absolutely love it, but being in the ocean and being with the ocean life, I am not somebody who’s drawn to the beach. I am drawn to the sea. I am drawn to the ocean. In my next life, I will be a marine biologist. I can tell you a ridiculous amount of knowledge about all of the tropical [00:06:30] fish in the sea.

Alyssa Scolari: For me, it’s always been a place where I have felt like I would be the most at home, even though I’ve never really been to a place like that. I mean, I went to the Dominican Republic for my honeymoon and we got to do some snorkeling there and it was really cool, but I’ve never been to a place like Fiji that is so completely untouched and yet there was something inside of me [00:07:00] that always knew that that was where I belonged. And man, I am so glad that I made my dream come true because I was right. It is exactly where I belonged. I have never felt more at home in my entire life than I did standing on that beach. Not even standing on the beach, but being in the ocean.

Alyssa Scolari: The first day we got there. Well, really the second [00:07:30] day, because the first day we were falling asleep at the dinner table and then we went to bed. The next day, we went out into the ocean and we swam out to a bunch of big rocks out in the ocean and we climbed up on the rocks. When I say, we, I’m talking about David and I. We climbed up onto the rocks and we just sat there for what felt like forever, looking back at the island. The island is just mountains and mountains of jungle and trees [00:08:00] and then white Sandy beaches. And then we were looking down below us and the water is crystal clear and you could see fish of every color swimming below us. It, I mean, you could see just these bright blue fish that were swimming below us. And of course I was able to identify them right away because they were damsels, which are native to Fiji, and I was so excited. I just felt the most at peace, I’ve ever felt in my whole life.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:30] I spent every single day in the ocean. Every single day, snorkeling. There was one day where we got on a boat and we were jetting out into the ocean and we jumped off the boat and just in the middle of the sea, and we were snorkeling, and there was a shark right below us. It was like a reef shark, so it wasn’t massive, but it was still a shark. I’ve always wanted [00:09:00] to swim with the sharks and just the patterns on these fish, the colors of these fish, and not just the fish, the sand crabs, the sea turtles. It’s everything. It’s the coral reefs. The corals are neon. It was a world that I couldn’t even imagine in my wildest dreams. I had always dreamed of this and I always looked up what coral reefs look like, [00:09:30] but it was nothing that I could ever possibly dream up. It was beyond my wildest dreams.

Alyssa Scolari: There were days where we would do private picnics on private beaches, so they would pack a cooler for us and they would take us out on a boat, like 20 minutes away from our resort. They would drop us off on a private beach and we would just stay on a private beach, just the two of us, all day long, snorkeling. And you don’t even have to go out far to find the fish because the area [00:10:00] is so untouched. The land is so untouched. The resort that we stayed at, maybe holds 40 people. It is the only source of employment on the island. There were no humans. There was nothing there and we didn’t even have cell phone service. So, I mean, it was just a time of my life. I’ve never experienced anything like it and it was amazing.

Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:30] I did a lot of healing there. A lot of healing. I made a lot of decisions about just things and changes I’m going to be making and things I’m going to be doing in my career, so I’m happy. I’m also happy to be home though. I missed my dogs and my mother-in-law watched the dogs for us and it was so great to have somebody that we love and trust, be able to take care of the dogs. [00:11:00] And she’s awesome, so she did great with them. And yeah, now I’m back and I have a very big announcement to make, which by the way, if you want to see pictures of Fiji, you can head on over to my Instagram because I posted pictures on there. It is lightaftertrauma.

Alyssa Scolari: And speaking of my Instagram, if you haven’t… If you’re on my Instagram, then you might have already seen this announcement. But if not, then this is going to be new to you. I [00:11:30] have launched my first ever online course and I’m so excited. I have been a little distant from the podcast lately. You may have noticed. I’ve been doing my best. But the reason for that is because I have been working since June on creating this course, or May, I think I’ve been working on creating this course and it is finally here and I am so [00:12:00] excited.

Alyssa Scolari: The course is called The War With Your Body and I collaborated with Leanne Hershkowitz, who is a neurofeedback provider and a therapist as well. She was on the podcast to talk about neurofeedback and developmental trauma. This was probably maybe a year and a half ago, so you’d have to go back into the feed and find it. But we decided that we wanted to do a course together because there really isn’t [00:12:30] a lot out there in terms of online courses where people can truly learn about intuitive eating and diet culture and how to ditch those things. Well, not intuitive eating, but how to ditch diet culture and how to let go of that feeling that you have to be on diet after diet.

Alyssa Scolari: There’s a lot of misinformation out there and there’s certainly no [00:13:00] shortage of diet culture and I’ve talked about diet culture and eating disorders on this podcast, plenty of times before, and body image and health at every size. There’s no shortage of bad information out there where people are promoting weight loss and diets and calorie deficits and over exercising and we glorify thinness in this culture. And if you live in a larger body, you are made to feel horrible about yourself.

Alyssa Scolari: And so we [00:13:30] decided, you know what, we’re making a course and we’re going to talk about all of it. So in this course, we talk a lot about the diet industry, the weight loss industry, on all of the different ways in which the diet industry can come into your life without you knowing it.

Alyssa Scolari: We talk about the diet industry and social media. We talk about why diets don’t work and why the majority of people reach something called diet [00:14:00] burnout, which is where you’re just so sick of doing all the diets and you just don’t know what else to do but you physically cannot go on another diet. So, we talk about that. We talk about the different types of dieters out there and we talk about the alternative, which is intuitive eating.

Alyssa Scolari: Now intuitive eating is another super trendy term, but there’s also a ton of misinformation about [00:14:30] that out there, so we are breaking it down. Intuitive eating does not look like eating donuts all day, every day, and thinking, “Oh, Hey, I’m eating intuitively.” A lot of people think that’s what it is, especially people who are trying to promote their diets. Like, “Oh, don’t do intuitive eating because they think you should eat donuts all day.” That’s not true.

Alyssa Scolari: We talk about the different aspects of health and the stigma against [00:15:00] larger bodies that is even in our medical system, like what it can be like going to doctor’s offices if you live in a larger body. Even so much as getting on an airplane. I struggled as somebody living in a larger body, to fit in one of the seats in the airplanes, going to Fiji, and I was really uncomfortable and really triggered and it just felt so unfair that airplanes aren’t made for all body [00:15:30] types. So, we just talk about how ingrained fat phobia is. We talk a lot about fat phobia and really how to achieve letting go, ditching diet culture, becoming an intuitive eater.

Alyssa Scolari: There’s advice and direct tips in there for how to deal with loved ones and friends and family members and even doctors. When you’re going to the doctor, to avoid having, if you don’t want to get weighed, [00:16:00] or to avoid having to talk about weight. Or even tips in there for ways that you can deal with your children. If you are a parent and you are worried about your child being introduced to diet culture, this is a course that is absolutely for you. Or, if you’re just somebody who’s sick of dieting and you want to make peace with your body and you want to make peace with food, this is also a course for you.

Alyssa Scolari: We also discuss eating disorders and we discuss the [00:16:30] link between food issues or eating disordered behaviors and trauma as well. So, that is an important piece. I’m not saying that every chronic diet, or every person who diets has a history of trauma, or has an eating disorder. I’m not saying that at all. But what I’m saying is, trauma has been found to be linked to the onset of eating disorders and disordered eating. And so we discuss that as well.

Alyssa Scolari: Now, if you are a therapist and [00:17:00] you are looking for continuing education credits, you can also find that in this course. So, this course is either three modules or four modules, depending on what path you take. So, if you are a neurofeedback provider and you are looking to learn about how you can utilize neurofeedback to help clients with eating disorders, then you can sign up for all [00:17:30] four modules. If that does not apply to you, then you would sign up for three modules. If you signed up for the three modules, then you would get six credits. If you signed up for the four modules, then you would get eight credits.

Alyssa Scolari: Now the exciting thing is, I will be teaching this course, live. So, if you want to come to the live teaching of this course, you can hang out with us. You can ask questions. I would love [00:18:00] to see you there. I have spent two years, two years today actually, talking to you all through this microphone and it would be an honor to get to see your beautiful faces.

Alyssa Scolari: So, if you would like to attend the live teaching that will be held via Zoom, so it will be virtual, so anybody can attend, anywhere in the world and module one will be held on Thursday, September 22nd, [00:18:30] from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And module two will be held September 29th, also a Thursday, from 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM. And then the third module will be held October 6th and that will also be 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM and that is also a Thursday. The fourth module will be held on October 10th, and that will be from 4:00 PM to 6:00 PM. Now all of these times [00:19:00] are Eastern Standard Time.

Alyssa Scolari: So, if you are looking to sign up, but you live in a different part of the world, please make sure you take that into account. If you would like more information about this, you can head over to my Instagram. It is lightaftertrauma or my other personal Instagram, which is AlyssaScolari and also you can look in the show notes. The link to sign up will be in the show notes, [00:19:30] so you can do that, and you can also learn more about the course.

Alyssa Scolari: And then also there is an early bird special running until September 9th, 2022. So if you would like a discount, if you want the early bird rate, please head over as soon as possible and make sure that you sign up before September 10th. So, September 9th is the last day that you can sign up.

Alyssa Scolari: Now, for those of you who are interested in the course, [00:20:00] but you’re like, “You know what? I don’t think that I can make all those times work.” That is okay. All is not lost because these live recordings will be recorded and they will be stored and you will be able to access the course at any time. So you can go in, you can purchase the course, and then you can have all the modules at once. And that’s the same, whether you are a therapist, whether you are a parent, whether you are just somebody who wants to [00:20:30] see the course for yourself.

Alyssa Scolari: This course is awesome. I have worked really hard on it. There’s a lot of knowledge in here that honestly, people are not talking about and is not out there in the public and I got my information from two of the creators of Intuitive Eating, so I know that what I’m talking about is really, really helpful. It’s all legitimate and I [00:21:00] can’t wait. I cannot wait. I hope that this course helps you. I have been working on it for all of you and yeah, I just thank you. I thank you so much for all the support because if I didn’t have the support, I wouldn’t have even thought that this was possible. But because of you, it is, and I am really looking forward to seeing where this first course takes me and takes all of us.

Alyssa Scolari: So, thank you so, so much for your time. [00:21:30] I know this isn’t much of a content-oriented episode today, but I feel like I had a lot to catch up on and I wanted to introduce you to this new course. I hope you have a wonderful week. I love you all so much and I am holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari: Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are [00:22:00] at lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod.

Alyssa Scolari: Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 108: Major Announcement: My First Ever 
Online Course Is HERE! appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Dr. Nazanin Moali is a public speaker, psychologist, and sex and relationship expert. Dr. Moali is also the host of her own podcast, titled “Sexology”, where she dives into the psychology of sex and intimacy. In this week’s episode, Dr. Moali and Alyssa discuss the impact that sexual trauma can have on us as well as the hope that comes with reclaiming our sexuality and discovering pleasure again. 

Learn more about Dr. Moali and check out her podcast

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hello friends. I hope everybody is well. I have some exciting news. We are adding a mini episode to the podcast every week coming soon. This episode is all about you. When I say mini I’m meaning it’s going to be about 10-15 minutes long and what this little segment is going to be called is Survived and Thrived Stories. After starting this podcast I started to get people from all over the world who were reaching out to me to talk to me about certain things on the podcast that I touched on, certain parts of my story, specific topics that they could identify with, and I realized that there are so many people who want to share their story and want their voice to be heard, but they don’t necessarily want to be identified or they don’t want to share all of their story, so I wanted to create this mini episode series called Survived and Thrived Stories where you can email in anonymously or if you want to sign your first initial or just your first name, however you want, and you can share as much or as little of your story as you want.

Actually, part of why I really wanted to do this as well and part of why this is so special to me is because I realized that when I first started sharing my story, I did it in writing and I did it anonymously and I actually wrote into a podcast. I wrote into a very famous podcast called My Favorite Murder because I wrote in about a trauma that I experienced that I was a victim of a crime and that was my first kind of like, it was the gateway into me sharing my story and into me I think ultimately starting this podcast and helped so much in my recovery and I want to give all of you the same opportunity.

If you are struggling with something, if you have been through a hardship, if you are experiencing PTSD or if you have recovered or you are in recovery, because I believe recovery is a lifelong journey, I want to hear from you. If there’s something you want to share, send it on in and I will read it aloud on the podcast and then of course I will comment and offer any kind of support that I can. Yeah, I just think it would be a really exciting way for everybody to get their voices heard and for you to be able to inspire so many others and to reach out to others and let other people who are sitting in the darkness know that they are not alone and that they can get through this.

Whether you want to talk about things that helped you to recover, whether you want to talk about what happened to you, you can send it on over. I want you to send it to the podcast email. That’s lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. Again, that’s lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. Again, you will remain anonymous. I look forward to hearing from you. I would be honored to share your story on this podcast, so looking forward to it. Stay tuned and send me your story.

[Music 00:03:47]

Hello all you beautiful people. Welcome to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. You know who this is. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I am happy to be here this week with Dr. Nazanin Moali. Dr. Nazanin Moali is a licensed clinical psychologist and a, is it double A sect or AAS-

Nazanin Moali [04:27]:

AASECT. I know, it’s a complicated name. Yes. AASECT.

Alyssa Scolari [04:32]:

AASECT, okay. All right. Certified sex therapist, her private practice is located in Los Angeles and she specializes in working with couples and individuals struggling with issues of sex and intimacy. She also hosts a weekly podcast called Sexology, introducing the most intriguing findings in psychology of sex and intimacy.

Welcome. Thank you for being here.

Nazanin Moali [04:59]:

Thank you so much for inviting me. I’m very excited about this conversation.

Alyssa Scolari [05:04]:

This is absolutely one of my favorite topics to discuss. It’s so difficult. I guess I’ll just turn it over to you. Could you just elaborate a little bit more on the work that you do? Are you mostly in private practice in addition to the podcast?

Nazanin Moali [05:21]:

Yes. I have a private practice that I help people with all sorts of sexual health functioning challenges. One of the things that I’m very passionate about is helping sexual assault survivors, people who have experienced sexual abuse, to reclaim pleasure in their life because I know that this is something we will talk about, but one thing that breaks my heart, that at times people, they don’t think they deserve pleasure after experiencing trauma or they think that their work is done when they process the horrible traumatic experience that they had, but I think it can be very important and empowering to cultivate pleasure back into our lives. That’s one of the things that I’m very, very passionate about, supporting my clients to navigate.

Alyssa Scolari [06:09]:

You are living my dream. I love it and I can’t thank you enough for doing what you do because it really is important. As somebody who is, I myself am a survivor of complex PTSD from a history of sexual abuse, and I’m also a trauma therapist and I’ve been in private practice for about three years now and one of the things that I see consistently showing up in my office for survivors of sexual trauma is, “How do I have any kind of semblance of sexual pleasure when I can’t even be in my body? I have so much guilt and shame.” You help people to be able to experience pleasure again, to be able to reclaim their sexuality and I think that that’s amazing. It’s amazing.

Nazanin Moali [07:11]:

Thank you. Back at yourself, that helping people with this processing of traumatic experiences of all sorts. I have lots of respect for people that are helping clients in early stages and all stages of processing the trauma. That’s really rewarding but can be challenging work at times.

Alyssa Scolari [07:30]:

Yes. Yes, on both of our ends. It definitely can be challenging but so rewarding. So rewarding. In your experience what typically happens after people have survived any type of sexual trauma or sexual abuse?

Nazanin Moali [07:49]:

Well people kind of have different responses afterward when it comes to their sexuality, their relationship with their sexuality. It’s my experience that some people can become kind of numb. They don’t want to have any kind of sexual encounter with their partner or with themselves. They are in this continue to live in this fight and flight mode and sexuality is not a priority for them in that phase.

I also see people that after experiencing assault, whether it’s abuse, they start becoming more sexual. That they want to have more sex, they want to explore their bodies more, and both of those things are normal. I think it’s important to think about normal meaning it’s common, in a way. That’s the common early phases of experiences that people have.

Also we can develop all sorts of different challenges as a result of experiencing a trauma. Not everyone of course that they experience trauma develop PTSD, depression, anxiety, but for people who develop the depression and anxiety and all of those challenges, that also impact their sexual desire, their connection with their sexuality, and that can be another hurdle. Trauma can impact the way that we see our world and that can impact our relationships in our life, which can in turn impact our sexuality as well. There are a number of different ways that experiencing a trauma can transform us.

Alyssa Scolari [09:25]:

Yes, and have you found it to be even extra difficult for people to talk about because there’s already so much stigma around sex and sexuality and experiencing pleasure, especially for women.

Nazanin Moali [09:43]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Absolutely. First of all I think most people that I encounter, even whether in my office or outside, there are some level of discomfort talking about sex. At baseline many of us are uncomfortable and I think added to that, when we’re experiencing sexual trauma, that can even complicate things as well because sometimes people receive these unhelpful messages from others, kind of blaming them for their experiences. Perhaps you were wearing something provocative that led to this.

Alyssa Scolari [10:19]:

Right, or maybe you were drinking or what were you doing at a bar that late at night? Or things like that.

Nazanin Moali [10:24]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative]. Absolutely. Like was the person in your home? Maybe then you welcomed them into your home, so what could you expect? All of these horrible messages. If you’re feeling bad about sex to start with and then you experience some kind of negative messaging around us being part of what happened, which is ridiculous, so I think that also impacts how we’re feeling about our sexuality, the experience.

Additionally, for many people it’s okay and it’s common to experience some arousal during the experience of assault, during the abuse. It’s your body trying to protect you. What if you’re getting lubricated? All of those things are completely normally. It doesn’t mean that you were asking it, it’s just your body function of trying to protect you. I think that’s also important for survivors to know.

Alyssa Scolari [11:19]:

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying this. This was the hardest thing and for me personally, as well as for the sexual trauma survivors that I work with, is the hardest thing for survivors to be able to integrate, is this idea of well during the abuse, during the rape I was aroused. Or even I orgasmed, and therefore I must have wanted it. That’s not at all the case, as you’re saying, because we can’t control our body’s physiological response to our genitals being stimulated.

Nazanin Moali [12:09]:

Right. Right. I agree with you and I think unfortunately many people internalize those negative beliefs of thinking about oh God, perhaps on some unconscious level I wanted it or I was okay with it or I gave them the message that it was okay. I love that you talked about yes that’s part of the experience, it doesn’t mean that you were giving anyone a permission to do anything. Again, it could be a part of your physiological response, as you mentioned. At times it’s a way for your body to protect you, so there could be a number of different reasons that physiologically you had that arousal.

Alyssa Scolari [12:46]:

When you say part of a way for your body to protect you, meaning like in the sense of pretending to go along with it in order to protect yourself?

Nazanin Moali [12:56]:

Great question. One of the kind of common challenges that I hear from some of my clients that saying, from female clients, that “I was lubricated so perhaps the lubrication shows arousal,” but lubrication is a way that your genitals trying to save you from experiencing tearing, all sorts of challenges. That’s why they say that it’s your body wanting to protect you.

Alyssa Scolari [13:22]:

That makes sense. That makes sense. Right, so lubrication again doesn’t necessarily mean that you wanted it. That’s your body’s way of trying to protect from any kind of intimacy or sexual trauma. Your body is preparing itself, trying to keep yourself from having tears or whatever kind of other injuries.

Nazanin Moali [13:43]:

Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [13:45]:

That makes a lot of sense. Yes. I’m so glad that you touched on that because I think that that’s so hard for people. As you were saying earlier, some reactions that we have or some people go into sexual avoidance and some people become hyper sexual and when people come into your office do they realize that they have sexual trauma or do people typically come into your office for other reasons and then discover that they have sexual trauma?

Nazanin Moali [14:22]:

Well majority of my clients coming in for sex therapy knowing that they did the first part of the work. Kind of like knowing that I worked through the early phases of experiencing, kind of working through those difficult memories. Now they’re ready to explore their sexuality and sexual wellness piece. That’s why they’re seeking out a therapist. But at times I had clients that they’re coming in to me to say, “I don’t feel anything during sex. I have this numbness,” and when we’re unfolding and unwrapping different parts of their experiences we realize this is stemmed from their experience of being a survivor and not dealing with the completely treating symptoms of experiencing that trauma.

Alyssa Scolari [15:10]:

Yes. Could you talk for a few minutes about that experience of, this is something that I absolutely relate to, of the numbness around having sex? I know for a long time before I knew that I had sexual abuse I truly thought that I was broken so I would imagine that you have people that come to you that are just like, “I don’t feel anything when I’m having sex.” Could you talk about what that process actually is and what’s happening?

Nazanin Moali [15:38]:

Absolutely. I feel like for many of my clients when they experience their sexual trauma or other kind of traumas at times, they learn to disconnect from their bodies. They’re very aware of what happens in their mind, but sex is about sensation so it’s important to connect with our bodies and it could be a common experience but it’s something that people need to work through because in order for us to connect with our pleasure we need to be able to pay attention to sensations and all of those experiences we have in our bodies, so that’s part of it.

Again, it could be one way for you to manage working through those or experiencing those horrible experiences because sometimes during the traumatic experience you’re going through something really, really painful emotionally, physically, so consciously unconsciously you’re disconnecting from your body to protect yourself. Now that you are ready to embrace your sexuality and introducing pleasure, it’s really important to do practices that helps you to connect with your body again and work through the numbness.

Alyssa Scolari [16:49]:

Yes, so practices that focus on grounding yourself and being in your body.

Nazanin Moali [16:55]:

And kind of being okay yes, and experiencing pleasure.

Alyssa Scolari [16:59]:

Yep. Yep, exactly. Exactly. How do you help people work through the shame and the guilt around sex? Some people feel like after the abuse that they endured that they’re not even worthy of having pleasure. How do you help people with that? I know that’s a very broad question. I think it’s very individualized, but what are some things you might do?

Nazanin Moali [17:31]:

Well I think one important thing is to identify the beliefs that you develop because of experiencing, as the result of experiencing trauma. What are some of the core beliefs that you develop? What are some of the things that you, the messages that you have around your bodies, around relationship, around sex? Part of it is identifying those messages and also examining that. Are they serving you? Are these accurate? What else we can put in instead of this belief that would serve you better and is congruent with your values. The life that you would like to lead. That’s part of it.

Also equally important is seeing it as a way to get revenge on the person wanting to take away your sexuality.

Alyssa Scolari [18:19]:

I love it. Yes.

Nazanin Moali [18:20]:

That can be motivating for many people, thinking about this person, this experience didn’t break me. Perhaps I can work toward transforming myself and my experiences and my sexuality as the result of that.

One of the research that I’ve done in graduate school was around posttraumatic growth. That many people, when they experience trauma, after that possible to experience growth. Growth meaning that it’s not you’re going back to the even pre-trauma functioning. It’s more about going beyond and cultivating experiences that’s beyond what you were experiencing. That would be even if you had a mediocre sexual experiences before trauma, this experience can provide you with this opportunity to experience growth and change your relationship with sexuality, with people in your life. Kind of anchoring in that, that can help people to feel more motivated to work through that.

I think the other piece of it, thinking about incorporating pleasure back in your life. Not only sexual pleasure, it could be all sorts of pleasure because when we’re thinking we’re not worthy then we’re not taking care of ourselves, we’re not paying attention to our physiological needs, to our pain, all of that. Working on incorporating pleasure inside and outside the bedroom is also part of it and really working on cultivating awareness around your body. [inaudible 00:19:49] that focusing on doing grounding exercises, number of different exercises I give my clients to explore their body and finally their sexuality. That also can help people to feel more grounded and they’re going to have more experience of embodiment.

Alyssa Scolari [20:07]:

You start with non-sexual touch.

Nazanin Moali [20:12]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [20:12]:

Which I think is so important. I follow this one person on Instagram. Her handle is My Orgasmic Life.

Nazanin Moali [20:21]:

Nice.

Alyssa Scolari [20:21]:

Have you ever heard of her before?

Nazanin Moali [20:23]:

No.

Alyssa Scolari [20:24]:

She’s wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. She has these workshops and these seminars, it’s called Body Sex, and she helps women to become more grounded in themselves and be able to explore their sexuality and tap into their sexuality but she starts with non-sexual touch. For many people, and I know especially for me, non-sexual touch was all I could handle for a long time. I think that that’s important. Just even hand holding or even, and this is if you’re with your partner, but there also can be non-sexual touch even if you’re solo.

Nazanin Moali [21:08]:

Absolutely. I think definitely with partners, again kind of like checking in with yourself about your readiness on whether to introduce touch or not. At times we start as you said with hand holding or it could be caressing different parts of the body while you have the clothing on. We’re not removing any clothing. That can take awhile and then after that when you’re ready you can escalate things.

Also as you mentioned, even when you are practicing solo, exploring putting lotion on different parts of your body and paying attention to the sensations, smells, all of those good things. You can practice this element of paying attention to your body. I think that’s very important.

Also breathing. Connecting with your breath can also be very powerful because when we’re ready to be with a partner or we’re ready to introduce solo sex, it’s important to also to use our breath as a way to anchor ourself in our bodies. That could be one tool.

Alyssa Scolari [22:11]:

To use our breath as a way to stay grounded.

Nazanin Moali [22:13]:

Yes, and being focused in the moment because if we’re connecting with people sexually, one common experience that many survivors have is they disassociate. They kind of leave their body and that’s common and you can use your breath to anchor yourself back into your body.

Alyssa Scolari [22:32]:

Okay. That’s really, really interesting and makes so much sense now that you’re saying it. I had never thought of that before but yes, it makes so much sense.

Nazanin Moali [22:41]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [22:42]:

Such great, great tips and tools. I do want to be clear for the listeners out there that this is a process, which I know you can speak more on, that takes awhile.

Nazanin Moali [22:57]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [22:58]:

We can’t expect this to happen within a week.

Nazanin Moali [23:01]:

You’re absolutely right about that and sometimes it means that it’s not a linear path. Sometimes you’re escalating things with your partner and it feels okay, and something happens in your life and then your body kind of goes a little bit back. You’re no longer ready for sex or you’re not ready to connect in a specific way with your partner, so that’s completely okay. It’s important to have this compassionate view of yourself and okay, as long as you’re working on this and moving forward, that’s what’s important. Recovery is possible but it’s important to take it with your own pace because if you are going too fast then that might lead for you to experience all sorts of sexual challenges. I see people that many survivors develop all kind of sexual dysfunctions because they either didn’t address the main issue around trauma or their pacing wasn’t quite right, so I think that’s important to keep in mind.

Alyssa Scolari [23:58]:

Yes, I like that you pointed out that it’s not linear because I think that that can be very frustrating for some people and certainly was frustrating for me on my recovery journey where I would be okay sometimes and then during maybe a high stress time in my life it would be like, oh this is not okay, and it would feel defeating because it would feel like well great, I’m right back where I was. But that’s not at all the case. It just ebbs and flows. In the same way that I think, and you could speak more to this, that any sexual relationship would ebb and flow, right?

Nazanin Moali [24:38]:

Absolutely. That’s completely okay as long as you are focusing on communicating that with your partner and focusing on experiencing having good enough sexual experiences. We are living in a society that we’re all constantly bombarded with what’s sex supposed to look like. That it needs to be this glamorous production and everyone else is having sex every day and you’re left out. It’s important to think about who you are and what kind of sexual experiences you want. It’s a goal that can change in different phases of our life.

Alyssa Scolari [25:14]:

Yeah. It’s important to know that it doesn’t have to be … Just kind of like you said, like it’s glamorized. If you’re with somebody and the relationship really is right, it has to be this mind-blowing, earth-shattering sex that’s every day and it’s like, this is not realistic. Everything works differently depending on who you are. Different strokes for different folks, basically.

Nazanin Moali [25:39]:

Absolutely. Yes. Yes, and I think people at times think about if they’re not experiencing spontaneous desire and we’re not climaxing the same time, it means that we’re broken or we’re not compatible. I think it’s important to know that our sexuality can look different and that’s okay.

Alyssa Scolari [26:00]:

Yes. Self compassion and allowing yourself to be where you’re at without judgment. Now there’s even more I think shame filled than having sex with a partner, I would say for trauma survivors I’ve found that learning how to engage in masturbation again I have found to be extremely, extremely triggering for trauma survivors. As a sex therapist, when somebody is trying to establish pleasure again into their lives do you recommend masturbation first? Like getting to know your own body first before they step out into exploring other partners?

Nazanin Moali [26:53]:

Well you brought up such an important point, Alyssa, that I think at times even especially with my female clients, there’s some stigma around masturbation. Whether they experienced trauma or not, kind of thinking about that this is not okay, I don’t want to do it, for a number of different reasons. And paired with experiencing trauma, that message can get amplified.

I guess one thing I want for people to know that it’s a wonderful way of exploring and seeing how ready are you to have sexual pleasure in your life and you have the control over your body and you can stop and I think that can be a really, really good way that you can gauge your readiness. You can incorporate different touches and explore that. I think that can be very, very useful.

I think one thing that’s really important to also keep in mind, that sexual trauma, sexual assault is a form of violence. It’s not about sex at all. It’s about the violence.

Alyssa Scolari [27:52]:

Yes.

Nazanin Moali [27:53]:

I think it’s important to keep that in mind and separating that from your sexuality and sexual pleasure. I think it’s important to keep that in mind, so actively turning your mind that direction. I think when it comes to masturbation I think it’s important even if you haven’t done it before experiencing trauma, thinking about it as a way for you to reconnect with your body. Even if you are not ready to masturbate to orgasm or you don’t want to, you can touch and stroke different parts of your body, kind of exploring and being curious about the sensation. Being curious what feels good and what doesn’t feel good.

At times our pleasure and our arousal can change after experiencing trauma. I have some clients, and I know this is such a controversial topic, but they incorporate their sexual abuse experiences as part of their erotic template. Especially if that was something that happened early in life, and they have all sorts of different sexual play that might not be mainstream but it’s healthy for them because it helps them to feel in charge, it helps them to feel safe in the consensual relationship and context.

Alyssa Scolari [29:06]:

Yep. In other words, people will incorporate part of their abuse during their sexual arousal because that’s what makes them feel A, aroused, B, like they have some kind of control.

Nazanin Moali [29:23]:

Absolutely.

Alyssa Scolari [29:24]:

Yes. Yes. I was just going to ask, and you are saying that we want to normalize that?

Nazanin Moali [29:31]:

Yes. Yes. Again, I think it’s important to differentiate are you re-traumatizing yourself with this behavior? Is this trauma reenactment? Or this is truly part of your erotic template now because now our fantasies, our erotic blueprint and our sexual behavior can give us this feeling of safety and it’s important for us to feel safe during sex. If this particular play, power [inaudible 00:29:57] change, whatever you’re into, it gives you that safety, then there’s nothing wrong with incorporating that.

Alyssa Scolari [30:04]:

Yes, and by explaining it like that and saying that you are washing the shame away from people who may be aroused by types of sex or types of foreplay that aren’t mainstream and it’s okay in a consensual situation. It is absolutely okay. I love that you said that.

Nazanin Moali [30:32]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [30:33]:

So important. So important. I just have to go back to what you said, because you said this earlier and I love it. It’s about when we talk about trying to help people come out of the shame and the guilt that they feel and reclaiming their sexuality and their right to pleasure as a way to get revenge. That is so important. I think that so much of the healing comes from reclaiming your right to pleasure because then you turn to your perpetrator, figuratively, not literally, and you say, “You didn’t win,” because the assault, the abuse, the rape, it’s not about arousal. It’s about power. It’s about power and violence and when you reclaim your right to feel pleasure, whether it’s with yourself, whether it’s with another partner, multiple partners, that’s when you take back your power.

Nazanin Moali [31:35]:

I agree. You say it much better than me.

Alyssa Scolari [31:42]:

I just feel so empowered by what you’re saying and the work that you’re doing and it’s wonderful. It’s wonderful.

Nazanin Moali [31:50]:

Thank you. Same to you.

Alyssa Scolari [31:53]:

Thank you. I have to ask, how long have you been working in particular niche, this field, for?

Nazanin Moali [32:00]:

Well I did tons of different research in trauma, so in trauma it’s been around 12 years. Sex therapy the last five years because I felt that I love doing trauma work but specifically this is something that I really enjoy, helping survivors and also people with all sorts of sexual challenges. That’s been a newer niche for me.

Alyssa Scolari [32:24]:

Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure it’s so empowering just to help people claim their right to pleasure. This is something that I have over the last year or so have strongly been considering going back for my PhD in clinical sexology because I want to be able to better help survivors of sexual abuse reclaim their right to pleasure, and you’re doing it and it’s incredible.

And you’re a phenomenal writer. The article that you sent me, which to the listeners out there, I will link this article in the show notes. This is an article where you talk about you give different tips on how people can start to recover. It was the posttraumatic growth that you were talking about, correct?

Nazanin Moali [33:12]:

Yes. A part of it yes, I talk about that. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [33:14]:

You’re a phenomenal writer and then you have a podcast as well. Can you talk a little bit about your podcast?

Nazanin Moali [33:22]:

Well thank you so much for allowing me to share this. I have a podcast, as I mentioned, called Sexology. I’ve been airing weekly shows the last four and a half years. I talk about science of sex and pleasure because one thing that I’m very passionate about is giving people accurate scientific research-based information because I feel like when we have the right information it will empower us to make right decisions because there’s just so many inaccurate information out there. At times they’re interviews, and at times the solos podcast episodes. It gets released on a weekly basis on Tuesdays. Whenever I’m talking about a topic that’s not necessarily within my specific niche I invite a researcher, scientist, another psychologist, therapist to come talk about it. It’s called Sexology and people can find it everywhere that they’re listening to the podcast, like Apple Podcast, Stitcher, all of those places.

Alyssa Scolari [34:21]:

I can’t wait to listen.

Nazanin Moali [34:23]:

Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [34:24]:

That’s so exciting. You’re doing incredible work. Where do you see your career going, because you’re also five years into working in this niche. I’m sure you’ve got big dreams and big goals to continue on to do other things. What are some of your goals?

Nazanin Moali [34:42]:

Well thank you for saying all of these wonderful things. You’re such a kind, considerate host. Yes I’m very excited. What I want to do is I want to do online courses specifically helping couples to connect because I feel like there’s a limit on number of people I can see in my practice. I love serving individuals and couples but I feel with e-courses, online courses and programs I can reach a broader audience and I can serve a bigger audience so that’s what I have in mind for the next phase.

Alyssa Scolari [35:14]:

E-courses, that’s amazing. Especially because everything is online right now. Awesome. Awesome, so you’ve got big plans.

Nazanin Moali [35:22]:

Thank you. Thank you. The other thing is around sexuality, whether it’s podcasts or e-courses, I think it’s easier when people can do the work in the privacy of their home or listen in the privacy of their home because it’s just tough to A, talk to a stranger about sex or going into the office can be another hurdle.

Alyssa Scolari [35:42]:

Yeah. Agreed. It takes being able to do this type of work from home and from the comfort of their own homes gives all people, but especially trauma survivors or sexual abuse survivors, a relief from the shame. I almost wish that when I was talking about my sexual abuse, I wish that it was online. I wish we were on Zoom because I remember quite literally hiding under a blanket at my therapist’s office while I would talk to her because of the shame. I do think it’s going to give people, it’s going to make people so much more comfortable to be able to do it from the comfort of their own homes.

Nazanin Moali [36:30]:

Well thank you, and I’m glad that you had the opportunity to go in person because I think even going in person can be very, very powerful. I think there’s benefit to all aspects, whether going in person or courses. It’s a matter of just taking action. I think that’s what’s important.

Alyssa Scolari [36:47]:

Agreed. Agreed. There are pros and cons to both. I think the benefit of going in person is that you are able to say it in person and to see somebody not judging you, normalizing the things you were feeling. I’ll never forget the time when lots of my memories of trauma were repressed and I was in the uncovering phase and I was just having all of these memories come to the surface and I was sitting in my therapist’s office with my husband and I kept trying to say, “But it feels good.” What we were talking about earlier, like this couldn’t have been rape because in the body memories it feels good. I couldn’t say it and the next session I remember my therapist saying to me, “I could feel what you were feeling yesterday and I know what you’re trying to tell me is that you feel pleasure along with the pain and that’s okay.” To be able to have that experience face to face was incredibly healing.

Nazanin Moali [38:09]:

Right. Right. What a wonderful gift that you got, the chance to work with someone that was so attuned with doing this work.

Alyssa Scolari [38:18]:

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well I thank you so, so much for coming on the show. Now if people want to find out more, I will absolutely link the article that you wrote in the show notes and do you have a website that people can go to as well?

Nazanin Moali [38:37]:

Yes. They can find my content, my podcast on SexologyPodcast.com. That would be a place that people can find me.

Alyssa Scolari [38:47]:

Perfect. I will link that in the show notes as well. Thank you for your time, for your knowledge, for your wisdom, your experience, and most of all for working in this type of field because it is so, so needed and you’re making huge changes. Thank you.

Nazanin Moali [39:05]:

My pleasure and thank you so much for having me on your podcast. This was an absolute pleasure.

Alyssa Scolari [39:12]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information about today’s episode and to sign up for the Light After Trauma newsletter, head over to my website at AlyssaScolari.com.

The really great thing about being a part of this newsletter is that not only do you get weekly updates on new podcast episodes and blog posts, but you also get access to the private Facebook community as well as access to all sorts of insider tips, resources and infographs that supplement what we talk about on the show. You also can connect with me and other trauma warriors. I’m super active on the Facebook community and I look forward to talking with you.

[Music 00:39:52]

The post Episode 107 Redux: Intimacy After Sexual Trauma with Dr. Nazanin Moali, Ph.D. appeared first on Light After Trauma.

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Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I’m your host, Alyssa Scolari, and I hope everybody is off to a good week. I am doing pretty well. I have been keeping up with my reading, which honestly has been helping me get through some difficult times. I just finished a book called The People We Meet on Vacation. Honestly, I do not recommend, unless you love a good rom-com, then you might like it. I just don’t think that I’m a romantic comedy kind of gal, I didn’t like it at all. I really expected it to be a little bit better in terms of like… The book is kind of like flashbacks of these friends who are on vacation in different parts of the world, and I just thought that I was going to get to feel like I was traveling with them, and that we were going to travel across the world with this book.

But honestly, so much of it was just about sexual tension, and I swear to the lord almighty, if I had to read one more sentence about how he gently and softly swept a damp curl from her face and tucked it oh so softly behind her ear, I will vomit. It’s just not me. It’s just not me. No offense to the author. The writing is good, the wit is great, there were a few moments where I chuckled out loud, and I think that if you love romantic comedies, it’s perhaps good, I was just not impressed.

So I’m looking forward to my next book, which is going to be The Guest List by Lucy Foley. We will see. This one is, I think has murder in it, which I’m already much more inclined to like, and at the end of the day, I just don’t think anything is going to top Where the Crawdads Sing. I’m almost sad that I’ve read it and that it’s over, because I feel like there is no book that is going to top that. I’m sure that’s not true, but right now my brain is still in Kya’s world, and yeah, I just wasn’t ready to leave that world. So anyway, I digress. I hope you’re having a awesome, awesome week so far, let’s get into it today.

So, we are going to talk about kind of a somewhat difficult truth, and this is a truth that I have had to grapple with a lot over the course of my life, especially lately, and the truth of the matter is that not everything is about you. And I know that that can come off as harsh, and I probably shouldn’t say it that harsh, because I have had people quite literally say that to me when I was a child, and it was really actually painful to hear, because I wasn’t trying to make everything about me, I just was desperate for attention and help of some sort, so I shouldn’t say it like that, right?

It’s not necessarily that not everything is about you. The nicer reframe for that is that you don’t always have to take things so personally, because truly so many things that happen are not personal. And this is a really hard concept for so many of us, especially trauma survivors, because our brains are wired for protection. So our brains are always trying to seek out a threat, and we are trying to eliminate any potential threats before we end up getting really hurt. So when something happens, we just assume that that person meant it intentionally, or we just assume that that person hates us, and we assume that the problem is us.

And we ask ourselves, “Why me? Why does this happen to me?” And that’s us taking things really personally and assuming that people’s behaviors are a reflection of who we are, and that is simply not true, and it really is one of the hardest things to unlearn. I mean, at least for me. I have had to grapple so much with this idea that people’s actions and their behaviors and the things that they say are not about me, right? And let’s talk about a couple examples, and I have a lot of personal examples about this, so I’m going to go to my personal examples.

So for one, and this might seem kind of simple, but going to the doctors, right? As a fat person, going to the doctors is always a really stressful experience, because they almost always say something about my weight, unsolicited. And so I’ve gotten to a place where going to the doctors has become kind of like a anxiety-provoking thing for me, and I had a doctor’s appointment just to get literally some vaccines, where I wasn’t even going to be weighed, and I was driving there and I could feel my heart just pounding in my chest, and I’m like, “Man, what do I do about this?”

And so I’m trying to talk myself through it and reframe like, “These doctors’ comments to me about my weight is not about me. It is literally not about me.” And you’re like, “What do you mean? They’re literally telling you to lose weight, it has to be about you.” It is so not. It is about their own fatphobia, their own misunderstandings, or lack of being up to date about what actually makes somebody healthy, right? Because again, you can kind of look at my blood work and you can see everything looks great, and then you can just look at my body or the number on the scale and say, “Oh, well, you must be unhealthy.” No, there are really no indicators that I’m not healthy.

So this is about the diet culture, this is about the fatphobia in the medical system, this is about doctors not knowing, or really understanding, or really caring to learn about the Health at Every Size movement, it’s not about me in the slightest. And so when I think about that, it helps me to shift my narrative from like, “Oh, I’m this, I’m that, I’m a bad person. Doctors don’t like me, they don’t want to work with me,” or “They think I’m this, they think I’m that.” They actually aren’t thinking at all, really. They’re doing exactly what their training has told them, which is “We see this number on the scale, we don’t like this number, and we need to address it.” That is literally what their training is, it’s what their training has told them to do, it has absolutely nothing to do with me.

And so reframing it like that has helped me to depersonalize it to the point where now I will go into a doctor’s office and I will be like, “Hey, not getting weighed, and no, I’m not going to tell you what my weight is, unless I’m here specifically for my weight, or unless you need to know it for some medical reason, I’m not letting you know.” And also I happen to have found a doctor at this point, at least a primary care doctor, who is amazing and totally, totally gets it. So that’s just one example, right? People’s behaviors are not a reflection of you, and I think that this is really important to remember with family members as well, right?

Many of you know, I no longer have any contact with my family. It is not, and most likely is never going to work out with my family, unfortunately. And I have had to grapple a lot with the past, and with trying to understand certain behaviors and certain situations, but every time, when I’m in therapy or when I’m thinking by myself, my therapist will remind me so that I’m able to remind myself, “Their behaviors were never about you. Their actions are never… They were never about you.” They were about X, Y, and Z things that quite frankly, I’m just not ready to share at this point.

But let’s say you have a family that you don’t get along with, or you have childhood trauma and your family members were your abusers, and let’s say you have parents who gaslight you, and when you try to talk to them about certain things that happened, your parents say, “That never happened, I don’t know what you’re talking about,” or they say things like, “I thought you had a great childhood,” or they try to guilt-trip you and say things like, “Oh, I guess I’m just such a horrible parent,” very sarcastically.

Let’s say you have a parent like that, it can be really, really confusing and difficult for you to try to figure out what the truth is, because you have certain feelings and certain memories, but then somebody else who was there is also telling you something completely different, and so you are left feeling very confused and a little bit chaotic because you know what you remember, and it’s very painful to not only be invalidated, but to have people tell you that your memories are wrong. And so it’s really helpful in these moments to remember, again, it’s not about you.

People might tell you that your memories are wrong because they don’t want to face it themselves. People might invalidate you because they don’t want to have those feelings. They are running from feelings themselves. Some families will invalidate people or gaslight people, or say that things never happened so that they can keep their own secrets, so that they can maintain the appearance of normalcy and happiness and functionality. It has so little to do with you, truly.

The same goes for, let’s say you go to the grocery store to go grocery shopping, and you’re checking out and your cashier is miserable. I had a cashier a few weeks ago, I went to the grocery store, and as I was almost finished, I had all these groceries in my cart, the cashier… Or actually the person comes on on the loudspeaker in the grocery store, and they’re like, “Just so you know, our system is down and we’re only taking cash right now.”

And so people were up in arms, because who carries that much cash on them? I feel like people rarely pay for groceries with cash anymore, certainly not me. So people were up in arms, people were leaving all their groceries and they’re running out of the store, people are running to the ATM, people are screaming, yelling, and I actually didn’t know it because I didn’t hear it on the loudspeaker at the time. And so I wheel my cart up to the cashier and I’m standing in line, and she looks at me and she’s like, “Hey, how are you?” And I was like, “I’m great, thank you, how are you?” As an aside, I was not great. I was having a terrible day, but I was like, “You know what? I’m going to be really nice.”

She was like, “You do know that it’s cash only?” And I was like, “Just this lane, or everywhere?” And she was like, “Our system is down, we’re not taking cards right now anywhere, so if you don’t have cash, then you can’t pay for these.” And I was like, “Oh.” She was like, “I don’t know how you didn’t hear that on the speaker earlier.” And I was getting heated, let me tell you. Luckily there was a very kind man there who heard the way she was talking to me, and I don’t even remember what he did, but he said something to kind of defuse the tension and I walked away, but I was fuming as I was walking away.

And one of the things I had to keep saying to myself over and over and over again is “It is not about me. Her rudeness has nothing to do with me as a person, and I am not taking on that energy. That is hers to deal with. I am not absorbing that.” And then I kind of do this visualization exercise where I picture myself almost turning into a rock, so that things will just bounce off me, so that I don’t absorb it, because a lot of times I’m a sponge, so I got to turn into a rock.

This happens even in stores when you’re shopping, grocery shopping, whatever it may be. It also happens among friends or acquaintances, and I got hit with it hard a couple weeks ago, where I have this distant friend who’s getting married and they… She has a shower that’s coming up, and I am not going to be able to attend the shower, and so I wanted to send a gift. And so I of course did my due diligence and checked in with the maid of honor to make sure that I could reach out and ask for an address so that I can send this gift, and the maid of honor was like, “Yep, go right ahead, you can reach out,” and so… Or maybe the maid of honor didn’t say exactly that, but whatever the maid of honor said was pretty much like, “Yeah, go ahead.” Like, “She knows, she knows about the shower.”

And so I just text her, and I just said like, “Hey, I’m not going to be able to make it to the shower, but I wanted to send you a gift. What is your address?” That is literally all of the information that I revealed. I didn’t give anything away, nothing. Within like an hour or so, I get a text from one of this person’s other friends, a person who used to be a friend of mine, but who I haven’t talked to in years, and don’t care to talk to, reached out to me and was like, “Don’t say any more about what you’re going to be doing and when, because this needs to be a surprise. We all want this to be a surprise and so does the bride,” and it was just a passive-aggressive text message.

And I was so hurt by it, because number one, I did my due diligence, I made sure that what I… I was very careful with what I said to not let anything slip. Number two, I don’t understand, I texted one person, so why is it that that person that I texted felt the need to share my messages with somebody else, right? Obviously I know you’re talking about me, obviously I know you have a problem with what I said, even though I don’t know what I said, to the point where the person I texted, the bride, I asked for her address, she still hasn’t gotten back to me.

So I did something, I clearly did something, of which I don’t frigging know, but this is exactly why I have chosen to cut ties with so many people in my life, because I don’t put up with this bullshit, because it really got to me, and I started crying and I started saying to David, like, “I don’t understand why people have to do this to me. I feel like people don’t like me and I don’t know what I did. I did everything I possibly could to not let the surprise out. I checked with the maid of honor. I just don’t know, whatever.”

But I was taking it so personally until I sat down and I thought, and I was like, “You know what? This is actually who they are,” because I’ve known these people for many, many years, and I’ve been around different groups and I’ve heard, they all talk shit about each other. Every time somebody so much as sneezes, somebody else knows about it. They all talk shit, they all gossip, they all look for something that somebody does wrong, and it just happened to be me. It just so happened to be me this time. I did something wrong, and instead of reaching out to me and saying, “Hey,” I don’t know, telling me what I did wrong, they’re just going to ignore me or be passive-aggressive. Mind you, these are people that are way older than me.

So it’s just like, it’s not about me. This is what they do. This is what they do for fun. They chew people up and spit them out for fun. And as soon as I was able to realize that, I felt so much better, and then I was able to just laugh it off and go, “Yep, this is what they do,” and let it go, and didn’t say anything, and realized, “You know what? I don’t want friends like this, and we’re done here.” I also should say, I don’t want that to sound like I have cut people off abruptly, because I haven’t, and I don’t recommend that.

If you want to learn more about cutting people off versus talking to them and setting boundaries, you can look back in the previous episodes, but suffice it to say that these are people who I have decided just aren’t good for me, and so these friendships are not going to go on. But it’s not about me, it was never about me, and it was never about you either.

How much angst and anger and frustration and tears do you think could have been saved if you remember that people’s actions truly have nothing to do with you? How many tears, how many less tears would’ve been shed if you acknowledged that people, nine times out of 10, are just operating according to their own rules in life, and if those rules happen to hurt you, they’re not really paying too much attention to that? They’re not sitting up at night going, “How can I hurt this person’s feelings?” They’re just trying to make it through their lives, and that’s not me saying that it’s okay, it’s not. But what I’m hoping that this does is try to take a lot of the pressure off of you to feel like you need to be better, like you did something wrong, like you need to change things.

Listen, we all need work. We all need work, we all have things we have to change, but you don’t need people to make you feel terrible, and you don’t need to be personalizing people’s actions in order to elicit change. People love to gossip, they live on it. People love to talk about other people because it makes them feel better. Families love to keep their secrets, because if we keep our secrets, then we maintain the system, then we don’t have to deal with the pain and the feelings. Rude people out there exist because they’re having bad days, and they project all over the world, and very little of it is personal. And the moment that you realize this and can continue to tell yourself this, that’s the moment that dealing with people and being in relationships with people, friendships with people, becomes so much more manageable. I love you, I hope you have a wonderful week, and I will be holding you in the light.

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 106: Don’t Take It Personally with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Sarah Tatarski’s Instagram: @vulnerableandnotafraid 

Adult Children of Alcoholics & Dysfunctional Families

Info on the Alpha-Stim device

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari:

Hey everyone, this is just a quick note that Sarah wanted me to hop on and let you all know. Sarah’s mom was not her abuser, so her father was an alcoholic and he was her main abuser when he was alive. Sarah and her mom have had an enmeshed relationship since she was young.

Alyssa Scolari:

That caused her mother to be a trauma trigger for her, so she just wanted me to come on and clarify that just so you can know who is who and didn’t you know, think that somebody was her abuser when in fact they were not.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, I hope you enjoy this episode.

Alyssa Scolari:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have a guest episode today. It is so rare that we have guests on the podcast these days, but there is a special person who I met just like Jennifer Burns, which Jennifer, if you haven’t listened to older episodes, Jennifer is the woman who we talked about crystals, with and how crystals have been used and have helped her with her trauma recovery.

Alyssa Scolari:

I met Jennifer just because she was a podcast listener and we connected. And we started talking about a topic that we were really passionate about. And a similar thing has happened with today’s guest. Her name is Sarah Tatarski. And I met Sarah basically, through the podcast. She was a listener of the podcast, reached out and we started talking via Instagram.

Alyssa Scolari:

Now, Sarah is an artist, an aspiring entrepreneur, a cat mom, and a mental health missionary. She recently graduated from college in May of 2021, and has been on a mission since then to work through her core wounds from childhood and early adult life.

Alyssa Scolari:

After four years of only doing CBT and feeling ready to be deeply challenged, she tried more intensive therapeutic approaches. These include trauma focused treatment centers, family therapy, EMDR, ketamine for major depressive disorder, and the use of a cranial electrotherapy stimulation device called Alpha-Stim.

Alyssa Scolari:

Sarah recently started a mental health focused Instagram called Vulnerable and Not Afraid, to share her recovery from trauma and educate people on other therapeutic options that have personally helped her. Now, we are talking about a really important topic today, and I know I say that shit every week. So, forgive my redundancy, but you know how I love all things, mental health.

Alyssa Scolari:

But I think that this is particularly, important because for the last two years on this podcast, we have spoken about therapy and treatment pretty much from like a standard outpatient setting. So, how to process things when you’re going to therapy once a week or twice a week in your standard outpatient setting. And that isn’t always enough. And there certainly, have been many times where it wasn’t enough for me. And I know that there are many people out there that hasn’t been enough for either including Sarah.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, we are talking about different treatment options for when you find yourself in a place where therapy once a week or twice a week is just not enough. So, with that said, I will stop talking and I’m going to turn it over to Sarah. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Tatarski:

Hello. I’m excited to be here.

Alyssa Scolari:

I’m really excited to have you. I know we were actually, supposed to record like a week ago, and then I had COVID and lost my voice and sounded like not even remotely myself. So, thank you for rescheduling and bearing with me. Let’s start out by saying, or by me asking you, like, tell me what even makes you passionate about this? If you’re comfortable, can you tell me about a little bit of your own experiences?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, in regards to seeking mental health treatment or my trauma or all of it? What particularly?

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I think, you have a lot of experience and knowledge on alternative forms of treatment. And so, I guess what my question would be is like, did you get to a certain point in your life where you were like, “Hey, just going to therapy once a week isn’t enough for me?” How did you know what was going on in your life? Things like that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I’ve had a couple different, I guess you could say breaking points in my life. The first one was March 2019, and I had to take a medical withdrawal from school, but I instantly, felt better not being in school. The stressors were gone. I said, “Okay, cool. I can manage this.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And I trudged along December 2020 came, I had this dramatic memory that I didn’t remember resurface. I was living back at home with my mom and I was just spiraling like crazy. And that’s when my… The first time my therapist said, “Sarah, you need to go to this trauma center.” And I said, “Eh, we’ll see.” I told her the memory finally. And then, I felt better again.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I just trudge along, trudge along and finished school. And then, I just completely fell apart because post grad depression is real. I don’t think people talk about it enough. They’re like, “It’s so fun. Oh, my gosh, congrats.” And I said, “I’m miserable. And I have no path anymore. And I don’t know what the hell I’m doing.” And a lot of my friends went through this too, especially us graduated in 2020 and 2021, we were so burnt out from COVID and the huge changes we had to go through.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, for me, I said, “Oh, I’m going to take a break.” And that break turned into me, spiraling constantly. And it just got to a point in end of June where I was not really eating, I wasn’t really sleeping. That same memory came nagging at my brain. And my therapist said, “You need to forego your income and just go to a trauma center.” And I said, “Okay.”

Alyssa Scolari:

Ah, that’s a hard thing to hear. That’s a really hard thing to hear.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it just got to the breaking point then. And I had moved back home again in May 2021 with my mom, which didn’t realize back then, but she was a huge trigger, and I didn’t quite grasp why she was. And until later after all these therapies I’ve done, but I was just absolutely miserable. And I said, “Okay, you know what? I’m finally going to do this. I have the ability to not work. I have really good insurance. I’m going to take advantage of this.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, that was the line where I was, I’m just miserable every day in my life to the point where I don’t know if I can lip. So, that was my breaking point in June 2021.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, you’re saying like you were at that point where you were like, “I just don’t even know if I want to be alive anymore? Like, my safety might be on the line?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, I think we never struggled with SI, suicidal ideation much, but it was getting to that point where I just felt like, I don’t know, can I go forward in life? And that’s what motivated me to get different help and more intense help.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay. So, I really appreciate that you said that, because I think it’s very important to highlight that this country makes it seem like in order. I mean, I guess we can just also start out by saying that the system for higher levels of care, isn’t the greatest, it’s not the greatest.

Alyssa Scolari:

And so, on one hand, we shame people from talking about their suicidal thoughts, for fear of them getting locked up. But then, on the other hand, when people have suicidal thoughts, they are often told when they go to a hospital and they want treatment. They’re often told, “Well, you actually, have to make an attempt,” in order to be hospitalized or in order to not even just be hospitalized, but in order to eventually, get to a treatment center.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, I think it’s really, important that you said, “You know what? I’m not necessarily suicidal. I’m not necessarily a danger to myself, but I’m not okay with the quality of life that I currently have. And therefore, I’m seeking alternative forms of treatment,” because you don’t have to get to a point where your life is on the line to decide, to seek different forms of treatment. I love that you said that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. And definitely, I didn’t want to get to that point. And it was teetering between that. I’ve met friends at my trauma centers who are, have attempted, were attempting, got transferred from intensive care to where I was. And yeah, I don’t think it’s acknowledged enough that you don’t have to be either attempt or actively, planning to seek help because I didn’t want to get to that point. I never want to. And I hopefully, never will.

Alyssa Scolari:

You had mentioned a little while ago that you realized after different types of treatment, that your mom was a trigger for you. And one of the questions I have is, was it difficult for you to go to a treatment while living, because you had lived with your mom while doing some of this treatment, was it difficult to live with somebody who is a trigger while going to a treatment? Because I think a lot of people can probably, relate to that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it was a whole another challenge. I’m in my trauma for, let’s see, the first trauma center I went to, I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 p.m. I did therapy three times a week individually. We had groups all day, trauma groups, four times a week and relapse prevention, which was incredible, which by the way, I had no idea what relapse prevention was. And I said, “I don’t do drugs.”

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I just laughed it off until I got there and said, “Oh, I have a lot of toxic behaviors that are not related to alcohol or any kinds of other drugs.” So, life changing.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

But just doing that all day and having the realizations that I was having. And then, I come home… And by the way, I didn’t mention this. I’m in my childhood house where I experienced my trauma, and that is where I’m living right now.

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, my… Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

That’s a whole another level of, I’m living with a trigger, I’m living in a trigger, and I came home every day and I’m like, “Ah.” I’m like running around, like a chicken with its head cut off. I’m freaking out. I can’t ground myself. I can’t focus on my treatment. And the only relief I got was when I stayed with my friend for a whole week and I was like, “Oh.” I can come back, and I just lay in bed. I’m like, “I’m so happy and relaxed.” But it was extremely challenging. I don’t recommend it. I recommend anyone doing what I did.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

I mean, living with your trigger and living in the house you were abused. I recommend trauma treatment. Absolutely. Of course, I wouldn’t be on here otherwise recommending it. But it made the process that much harder because there was a point, I told my therapist, I said, “I just want to be a prostitute right now. And move out of my house.” And he’s like, “Sarah, no.” And I’m like, “But that’s how I feel.” And he said, “I’m not going to act on it.”

Sarah Tatarski:

But that’s how overwhelmed I am right now. It’s like, I will do anything to get out of my house. Of course, I never acted on it. But that’s the thought…

Alyssa Scolari:

Right. So, the point where…

Sarah Tatarski:

… that happened.

Alyssa Scolari:

… you’re considering. Yeah, you’re considering like prostitution or sex work to get out. You’re like, “I will do whatever I have to get out of this place.”

Sarah Tatarski:

Which is, there’s nothing wrong with sex work. It’s just not my… I have too much trauma to engage in that field sex workers. You’ll do whatever you want. But yeah, that’s just to the point. I was so vulnerable that that’s what I was just willing to do. And that’s not healthy situation to be in.

Alyssa Scolari:

I mean, right, exactly. It would be ideal. Again, like you said, there’s no issue with sex workers. It’s feeling like you’re trapped and you’re backed into a corner to the point where your only way out is considering an option that you know would be retraumatizing for you. That’s when you know all the alarm bells are sounding, you’re like, “Okay, I need to do something here.”

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. Yeah, it was very intense.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, then can you talk a little bit about, I guess, let’s go in specifically, like where should we start? What type of treatment did you start with? Because I know you’ve done a couple of different things.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, there were a lot of things I’ve done the past year. So, I’ll just briefly summarize. And then, if you want to ask more specific questions, we can go from there. But the first thing that I did was in July 2021, I went to a partial hospitalization program at a trauma center here in New Orleans called River Oaks, recommended fully.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I wasn’t living there. I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 like I had mentioned. You’re just there during the day, you don’t live in the hospital. It’s scary inside. I would not want to… Not wanting to stay there. I did not want to stay there. But…

Alyssa Scolari:

Scary like hospital setting type like?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yes, it was cold and there were not a lot of lights, and you went outside or not a lot of windows, and you went outside for like 20 minutes a day. It was like jail. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes, so many partial hospitalizations, like programs are like that. I’ve been to one myself and it feels like jail. And I’m like, “Why aren’t these a little bit happier? You’re trying to help people with their mental health, why do we feel like we’re locked up?”

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. So, I did that. And then, once I was done with that program, I started seeing a therapist for EMDR. And then, in December 2021, I went to a residential treatment program called Innova Grace in San Antonio, Texas. And I was doing a lot of EMDR there. I used the [inaudible 00:14:40] bed. I used the Alpha-Stim, which I’m wearing right now, like I mentioned earlier.

Sarah Tatarski:

And after that, continued to do EMDR, that’s what I’m doing with my therapist right now. I started ketamine for major depressive disorder. And now, I’m using the Alpha-Stim again. And forgot to mention on top of that, the past, however many months it’s been since August 2021. So, nine months, I’ve been in family therapy.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I’m doing 10 different therapies. And also, I recently, joined Adult Children of Alcoholics group and dysfunctional family. So, I’ve been going to that support group about every two weeks to every week. So, if you want me to expand on all of that, that’s a lot of different treatments that I just mentioned. So, happy to talk about any of it in more detail.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes, I have questions. I think the first question is, how did you end up getting involved in, especially in a post COVID world, in Adult Children of Alcoholic support group, because I think that there are many people out there who are listening, who would be very interested in that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, there are always meetings everywhere in the country and world at all times. And a lot of them are on Zoom now, too, which is great. So, you can just hop on Zoom at any time. And for me, I prefer in-person group. So, I go to the one at the church near my house at 5:00 p.m. on Sundays.

Sarah Tatarski:

And the way to get involved is to just go to their website, look up Adult Children of Alcoholic/dysfunctional families. And if you want to go to in-person meeting, you can just look up your town and see where it is. And if you don’t want to go in-person, you can join literally any group, like from what I’ve seen online, probably, at least half of them are hybrid.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, you can go in-person if you want, you can go in Zoom if you want. But oh, when they read the laundry list, I don’t know if you’ve ever read that. It’s the 14 traits that you can have as an adult with having a dysfunctional family or an alcoholic. And I fit all 14 traits. So, that’s when I knew I belonged.

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, I don’t think that I’ve ever read that before, but I bet it would be very jarring for me.

Sarah Tatarski:

You will be surprised. And when I say all 14 traits, I don’t mean I have those now. I mean, at some point in my life, I have all 14 of them. So, even if you have one, I’m pretty sure, they’re like, if you have one of these traits, you are welcome here.

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow. Okay. And for the listeners out there, I will link that in the show notes, the website that you can go and you can check it out because I think it’s very important and I know that a lot of you can relate. So, okay, cool. So, thank you for that.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, now question about, so in terms of EMDR, I have, I think… So, I’m going through EMDR right now and I’ve been open about my experiences, both on my Instagram and I’ve shared a little bit on the podcast and we’ve also had people come on and talk about EMGR.

Alyssa Scolari:

I guess, the main question I have for you about EMGR because for those of you out there who don’t know what it is, I talk about it in depth with a licensed clinical social worker. Her name is Melissa Parks on the podcast, and you can feel free to go and check that out. It is a really fantastic treatment for trauma that focuses on rewiring your nervous system, like your brain. So, for EMGR, did you find that was particularly helpful for you?

Sarah Tatarski:

It’s definitely helped. It’s not perfect. Of course, no treatment is perfect, but I’ve honestly, been only able to work on and am working on two memories. But the thing about these specific memories I’m working on is that, they hold a key to other things that I can’t remember. And that’s why, my therapist says we’re going to keep working on these two. And I’m like, “No, I want to be done with them.”

Sarah Tatarski:

But it’s definitely, helped me to calm down in regards to my body not being as reactive. And I’ve noticed that the first memory that really resurfaced after about eight years and that drove me to get the help that I needed. My reaction to it has gone down a lot.

Sarah Tatarski:

My bodily reaction, I used to like throw up. I used to not eat. And now, it will come up and I’ll be like, “Okay, deep breath. It’s okay. You’re safe like, that’s not happening right now.” We’ve talked… I’ve talked about it many times. I opened up to friends, I went up to multiple therapists.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I’m able to calm myself down. On the past, I literally, I would line around like running around my house. I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. I’m scared, all this stuff. So, I significantly reduce my reactions while, and I don’t want people to think that it gets rid of the memory. I think some people are like, “I want to get rid of my memories.” And I’m like, “That’s not how it works.” But it reduces your bodily reaction to it.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I definitely notice, like I said, I’m not violently reacting, like I used to in the past. So, I found relief with it. My brain also likes to block me thinking about these two particular memories because there’s some of the most intense memories I have. But as I continue to work on it, I’m able to be less reactive and process it with my therapist.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that’s ultimately, right. There’s no such thing as a perfect treatment. But EMDR, I think is supposed to be beneficial at just like relaxing your nervous system. So, that like hyper vigilance isn’t there as much. All right. So, can you talk about Alpha-Stim, and then there was one other… What did you say in addition to Alpha-Stim?

Sarah Tatarski:

I’ve been doing ketamine for major depressive disorders. So, there’s that, in addition to the Alpha-Stim, family therapy, and then my trauma centers, and EMDR.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

Which is all like, they’re all interconnected, anyway.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right, right. And can you talk about Alpha-Stim? Because I think that’s a very new term. I’m not even familiar with Alpha-Stim.

Sarah Tatarski:

I am shocked at, I actually, spoke with a psychiatrist a couple of weeks ago. He monitors me when I’m doing ketamine. And I told him about it. He said, “I’ve never heard of that.” And I’m like, “Whew, this is alarming.” I’ll go into details about it, but I’ll give you a little bit of a history because I was wondering, why is this not talked about every single day? Why is this not open on the market? And I’ll tell you this.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I read about the history of Alpha-Stim. Yes, I’m a nerd. I read the little pamphlet that came with it. But so, the way that it works is, it uses biophysics and biophysics used to be taught in medical school up until the 20th century. And then, the chemistry took over and they stopped teaching biophysics. Of course, we know that pharmaceutical industry has a huge power over everything in this country.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I found that interesting that they used to teach biophysics, but now they don’t. And that’s probably, why it’s not really mainstream as you would want to call it. But I’ll just read you exactly, what they say from the website, because I don’t want to give any misinformation to y’all.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, the way that it works is, it’s cranial electrotherapy stimulation, and it uses small electrical currents to stimulate certain brain regions. And these currents mimic the electrical activity naturally occurring in the brain, which in turn regulates the electrical part of the brain’s electrical chemical signals. And this is how it helps you to get piece of calm. It basically, regulates you without any drugs, just pure biophysics, which our body is… It’s just a huge electrical network.

Sarah Tatarski:

And that’s how they use the power of our body to heal with the Alpha-Stim. And you have to use it consistently, like every day over months to really get the full benefits. But you feel benefits within even like a day, because I hadn’t used it in three months since I was at my last trauma center, and I got in the mail about two weeks ago. I put it on my ears and after, I was like, “I feel so much better already.” And I forgot how magical this thing is. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow. Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

It’s been incredible. I’m sleeping better. I’ve had one migraine the past 11 days. I usually, get them every single day of my life. So, I’m not making the stuff up whenever I would never tell anybody to go buy a medical device if it didn’t work. But I just feel so much better. I feel more rested, because I have chronic pain due to my trauma, and I just feel a lot more content with the past two weeks, which is hard for me to say, usually.

Alyssa Scolari:

I mean, yeah, that’s incredible is this. So, when you say like, I have this and I put it on my ears, like, is it, what is it? Are they just like little like sensory, like clips you put on your ears and you have like a little machine around your neck?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it’s literally this small.

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

Nobody can see it. It’s about the size of like a palm, or like a hand depending on how big your hands are. I know, I have a little… I’m small. So, my hands are a little small, but it’s about the size of my hand. And the way that it works is that, you put a solution on your ears, and then you clip the electrodes onto your ear. And it just sounds little, little electrical signal to your ear.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, you feel this very mild little prick to your ear, but it doesn’t hurt. And that’s it. You use it at your house. You can use it on an airplane. You can use it wherever you want to use it. It’s just like the size, even smaller than the iPhone. So, it’s so easy to carry around if you need it to use it anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari:

And is there like, is it something that like insurance covers, or do people just buy it out of pocket? Do they have to go through like a therapist or a treatment center or anything like that?

Sarah Tatarski:

So, from what I know, the only insurance that covers it is TRICARE through the military. And only if you’re active duty, will they pay for it in full, which is…

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

… annoying. So, without insurance, it costs $840. And while it sounds like a lot, the amount of money I’ve spent going to doctors asking, “What is wrong with me? Why am I in so much pain?” The amount of days I’ve missed work, the amount of days I’ve missed out on life, the $840 is beyond worth it.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

And some insurances may cover it. I don’t have that answer. My insurance is really good. And they said, “No.” They outright said, “We’re not even going to give you money back.” And I said, “That’s really frustrating.” And $840 is a lot for people. It’s a lot for me. But I got to a point where I was just breaking down and I was like, “I can’t do this. I cannot live like this every day of my life.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I took the plunge, I ordered it, I use it twice a day, and I just, I feel so much better. I can’t even emphasize. I wish I could show data to show how much less pain I’m in. But like I said, they have a nine out of 10-success rate, and they’ve been studying this for over 40 years. So, this isn’t something that’s new to the market. It’s not, “Oh, in 2020 we invented this device.” It’s 40 plus years of research.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. And it’s infuriating because it’s also one of those things where it’s like, like you said earlier, why is this not talked about more? And it’s like, “Well, because it’s so successful.” And when it’s so successful, who suffers big pharma because people require less and less treatment and medication. And therefore, if you heal, you aren’t going to be paying as much money on other forms of treatment like meds. It’s very, it’s no surprise that it’s one of those things that’s kept hush, hush because…

Sarah Tatarski:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I’m not going to go too much on the tangent because then we would talk for hours. But the big pharma is based on a subscription model. They want you to be sick for your entire life. Why would they not want you to be? They want you to suffer. So, they make money. And that’s why I think, insurances aren’t going to cover it because they are very much tied into big pharma, of course.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I tell everybody since I got it the past two weeks, anyone that I meet or who was in my life, I’m like, “Pay the $840 if you can, it is worth every dime.” And I would never tell anybody to buy something if I really didn’t believe it, because that’s not like a $100. That’s 840. But…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

… Like I said, I mean, I’m sure the amount of us who’ve been through trauma or even if you haven’t been through significant amount of trauma, you probably, have some amount of pain from being on your computer all day. So, I just recommend it to anybody if you’re able to afford it or, save up to get it. It’s really, been incredible. And I’m so lucky that my trauma center, I went to in December to February had access to the Alpha-Stim for me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. That’s incredible. And I will also link the website, the Alpha-Stim device on the show notes, so you can check that out. And then, so let’s talk about ketamine because this is one that I am more familiar with, but I have not spoken with anybody who has gone through it. So, can you talk about like what it is and what your experience is with it?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I will say there are different kinds of ketamine treatment. There’s the nasal spray, which I do. There’s the shot and there’s also IV. And I don’t know which form is the most intense, but I know that the IV one is you get a very strong high and it’s very strong, with Spravato, which is the ketamine that I do.

Sarah Tatarski:

I do two nasal sprays, one in each nose, and you can go up to three sprays or three doses. Sorry, I don’t know how many sprays it is, but I do the two. Some people do three doses. I’m very sensitive to drugs in general. So, I was like, “Let’s go with the lower one. I don’t want to get too high.” I would like to see how I feel first.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I started looking into do ketamine last fall and my insurance rejected me. I don’t know how I don’t qualify for it. I would just spent two months at a trauma center. I don’t know how they… Apparently, they didn’t want to cover it. I struggled with major depressive disorder.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I felt really upset. And then, so kindly the clinic I went to called me and I said, “You know that the Johnson& Johnson Patient Assistance Foundation could help cover you, if you qualify, if you don’t make enough money, or if you don’t, there’s some income bracket level that I’m not 100% sure what it is. And if your insurance denies you, they could consider covering you for up to year, and then renew you.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I applied. I’ll be honest, I had been making $0. I’d just come out of a trauma center. So, I definitely knew I would qualify because one, my insurance rejected me. Two, my income was at zero at that point.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right.

Sarah Tatarski:

And they sent me a card, and for a full year they will cover it. And all I have to pay is, I think a $25 copay each time because out of pocket, it’s like $250. So, I’m extremely, lucky that the J&J Patient Assistance Foundation was covering me. And yeah, I started going in March 2022. It’s a big commitment, I will admit that. I don’t know what it’s like for, like I said, the IV or the shot.

Sarah Tatarski:

But with Spravato, you have to go twice a week for a month and you can’t drive yourself there or back because you’re too high. And then, the next month, you only go once a week. And then, after that is maintenance, if you choose. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

During the… Yeah, it’s a big commit. During the process, you’re just lying in a room for two hours by yourself. At least, that’s how my clinic does it. So, I’m just lying there and I’m like, “Hi, hi is heck in.” I’m just lying there. And it’s a really, nice time to almost meditate or just reflect for two hours. I literally, can’t do anything. I’m too high. I can’t barely look at my phone.

Sarah Tatarski:

And it’s been nice to have that reflection time, while I’m not exactly sure, exactly if it’s benefiting me because it’s hard. I had just come from a trauma center. I’m in therapy. I’m in family therapy. I have so many variables in my life that are helping me to heal that I can’t exactly say, is ketamine helped me because there’s just too many factors in my life right now that are helping me feel better. But that forced relaxation has been a challenge for me, because I struggle with relaxing and forcing myself to just exist in the world and just be…

Alyssa Scolari:

Right, as to many trauma survivors, yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. So, that’s been one of the most healing aspects of ketamine is just being. I even cried during one session. I was like, “What are these emotions that are just suddenly coming up?” I was like, “This is healthy. What?”

Alyssa Scolari:

What is this? Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, it’s supposed to help people who struggle a lot with SI. Again, suicide ideation for people who don’t know the shorthand. But I have other friends who’ve done ketamine in different forms and they say, it has changed their life. Again, too many factors in my life are going on for me to give you a definite answer. Yes, it’s helping me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Hard to say. It’s hard to say, yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

But just being in that community, going to clinic every week and seeing the psychiatrist and stuff, it’s more nice to just like have a little community of little ketamine people and we talk to each other. So, that’s been nice.

Alyssa Scolari:

And there are restrictions because ketamine is a drug. So, are there like, do they do thorough evaluations on like, drug abuse history? Because I would imagine that can be tricky.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I forgot to mention. Of course, I had to do an evaluation. They had to even diagnose me because technically, I mean, there’s a lot of diagnoses that I have that are not diagnosed officially. So, they had to do that to make sure, and then send that evaluation to my insurance and be like, “Hey, she has major depressive disorder.”

Sarah Tatarski:

As a former… If you’re a recovering drug addict, you can still do ketamine, but you have to be heavily much more monitored than me for who doesn’t have a history of drug abuse. But definitely, they’re not just throwing it around and saying, “Oh, yeah, everybody can do ketamine.” Even if you have major depressive disorder, they need to clear you to make sure that you won’t relapse or that you’re being monitored on different levels to know that you’re okay throughout the process and not going to relapse into a drug addiction.

Alyssa Scolari:

Now, do you know like, okay, so EMDR helps relapse your nervous system. And similarly, do you know how ketamine is supposed to work like on the body?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yes. So, I was always thinking ketamine was a psychedelic, but it’s not. It slows down the brain and that’s what it does. It just slows everything down. You’re like in a drunken state while you’re in the room. And I think that feeling of, “Oh, I have time to really think and just exist in the world and relax and think about things in a different way. Instead of, with trauma, our anxiety is so high. Sometimes, we can’t even think straight. We’re just like, ruminating, ruminating, intrusive thoughts all the time.

Sarah Tatarski:

And yeah, that’s how it worked. It slows down the body. And I should mention that, if you’re on antidepressants, they want you to continue to stay on those throughout the process. They don’t want you to get off of it. And personally, I’m not on an antidepressant right now, but I still qualified because I had tried two different medications and it didn’t help me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, if you have tried two different anxiety medications or depression meds and it didn’t work, you can qualify. So, that’s why I qualified. But they want you to stay on your antidepressants. And the other thing about Spravato is that, they say, “We don’t exactly know what it does. We just know it helps.” And so, welcome to big pharma, guys. They don’t exactly know what happened…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah, you know it helps.

Sarah Tatarski:

But they say, “Hey, it helps.” So, I’m not complaining. But yeah, you have to be on or continue to remain on your antidepressants throughout the process. They don’t want you to cold quit in the middle of ketamine.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay, yeah, yeah. I would imagine there’s also still so much research to be done about it because I do think it is newer.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, Spravato was approved I believe in 2019. So, it’s very new…

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

… compared to other drugs.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yup, very new. And a lot of studies have been on halt because of the pandemic. So, we’re still learning. We’re still learning. Now, I do have one final question for you, if you don’t mind. And this is partially, a question that I have personally, but also a question I think a lot of other people will have.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, in going to different forms of therapy, right? It sounds like you have had good experiences, but I know that there are so many people out there who have tried alternative forms of therapy and have had bad experiences and places that are poorly run, places that do more harm than good. I know that have certainly, been the experience for myself and many others. What is some advice that you can give people who I think are just feeling down and out about the quality of mental healthcare that they’ve experienced?

Sarah Tatarski:

You have to go in with an open mind because these places are run by humans. I mean, like I said, at the first trauma center I went to, it was almost like a jail. And I left, thank God at 4:00 every day, I did not have to sleep there. And there is some stuff that would go down at night, for sure.

Sarah Tatarski:

Everybody in there has trauma and things happen. So, I think for me, none of the places I’ve been to, none of my therapists have been perfect. Perfection actually, doesn’t even exist in the world. So, doesn’t want to say that. But, I mean, of course, if there’s abuse going on, if there’s emotional abuse or physical abuse from the staff and staff, I’m not saying, “Oh, go in with an open mind,” just ignore it.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right.

Sarah Tatarski:

But I just know that if you go in thinking that everything’s going to be exactly right, everything’s going to run smoothly at whatever care center you’re at or whatever treatment you do, the reality is that, it won’t. And you’ll probably, be disappointed. I mean, there are definitely flaws at places that I’ve been to.

Sarah Tatarski:

The place I was just at, called Innova Grace. I have had tremendous healing from them. But there’s things that could be worked on. Absolutely, could be worked on to make it an even better program. But there are some things I just had to let go because I knew that doing therapy at Innova Grace twice a week and getting EMDR and I was in Texas. So, I was away from my mom. I was away from my childhood home. I was so grateful to be there, and to be able to have that help, that there are some things, if it wasn’t overly concerning that I just had to let go in the moment.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I would complain, I would speak up if there’s something that made me uncomfortable and there were things that did change. And sometimes, it didn’t. But I also think another thing is, people might be disappointed in alternative treatments because you put in most of the work, if not all of it, therapists are there to guide you.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I think that’s something, I was naive in believing when I was younger, even probably, like two years ago, not even that long where I thought, “Oh, why isn’t this therapist fixing me? Why isn’t she doing this? Why X, Y, Z and all this stuff?” I was like, “Therapy only works if you’re as honest as you are. If you are, if you hold things from your therapist, you’re not going to make any progress. If you keep rejecting the way that you behave and act and that how resistant you are to treatment, you’re not going to get better. You can’t blame the treatment center. You can’t blame your therapist. Of course, again, some therapists suck. I just had a really, awful one from September to December. She told me… I said…

Alyssa Scolari:

Gosh.

Sarah Tatarski:

… “I just, I feel like I can’t go in public. And I feel like I can’t do things by myself. And I’m just, I’m so upset. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” And she said, “Just do it.”

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, wow. That’s great advice. Thank you, I never thought of that before.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, again, I just want to restate, there are people that are super problematic and there’s abuse in some of these places, there are. And I’m not saying to go in and be like, “Oh, yeah, ignore it and disassociate from it,” which is probably, how you coped this long. Don’t do that. But it is run by humans and it is how much you contribute.

Sarah Tatarski:

Because like I told you, before we started recording, one of my therapists, I told her, I said, “I’m really open.” And she called me out and she said, “No, you’re not, you’re not open.” And I’m like, “I got so guarded, and I’m like, whatever.” And then, I thought about it and I said, “She’s right.” And that’s how we proceeded forward. I was able to really, work with that therapist and get through so many deep things because I was just completely, honest with her and I let myself cry.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, that’s my advice, be open minded, just know the process isn’t perfect. If there are major concerns, voice them. If things don’t change, then maybe you need to try a different area, like a different place, a different therapist. And you have to contribute your full honesty and vulnerability to it, or else you will not heal. That’s something that I wish I had known when I was 19, when I started the journey.

Alyssa Scolari:

That is incredible advice. All of it, I agree. I mean, you said it perfectly, you said it perfectly. And I want to thank you for coming on the show because this is something that’s really, important to talk about. It’s something that you spoke a lot of hard truths that people I think really need to hear, hey, including myself. We all need to hear a lot of this stuff and it’s also very inspiring.

Alyssa Scolari:

And I think it certainly, has given me a lot of hope for the future and for my own recovery. And it’s hope that we wouldn’t have without your willingness to be vulnerable and come on here and talk about it. So, thank you so, so much. I know that I mentioned Sarah’s Instagram in the beginning of this episode, which the name is? Can you give the name one more time?

Sarah Tatarski:

Vulnerable and Not Afraid.

Alyssa Scolari:

Vulnerable and Not Afraid. You know that will be in the show notes for today’s episode. And I just want to say thank you again for coming on the show today.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it was so great talking to you, and I’m happy to answer any of the listeners questions if they directly message you or you can directly message me on my Instagram, I’m happy to do a call or send a voice memo, share resources. That’s, I mean, the whole reason I started the Instagram, partly for myself to remind myself, “Hey, this is where I’ve been.” And to help others realize that antidepressants and once a week therapy are not the only choices out there.

Alyssa Scolari:

Amen. Amen. Thank you so, so much, Sarah.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, no problem.

Alyssa Scolari:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 105: When Weekly Therapy Isn’t Enough with Sarah Tatarski appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Sarah Tatarski’s Instagram: @vulnerableandnotafraid

Adult Children of Alcoholics & Dysfunctional Families

Info on the Alpha-Stim device

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari:

Hey everyone, this is just a quick note that Sarah wanted me to hop on and let you all know. Sarah’s mom was not her abuser, so her father was an alcoholic and he was her main abuser when he was alive. Sarah and her mom have had an enmeshed relationship since she was young.

Alyssa Scolari:

That caused her mother to be a trauma trigger for her, so she just wanted me to come on and clarify that just so you can know who is who and didn’t you know, think that somebody was her abuser when in fact they were not.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, I hope you enjoy this episode.

Alyssa Scolari:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have a guest episode today. It is so rare that we have guests on the podcast these days, but there is a special person who I met just like Jennifer Burns, which Jennifer, if you haven’t listened to older episodes, Jennifer is the woman who we talked about crystals, with and how crystals have been used and have helped her with her trauma recovery.

Alyssa Scolari:

I met Jennifer just because she was a podcast listener and we connected. And we started talking about a topic that we were really passionate about. And a similar thing has happened with today’s guest. Her name is Sarah Tatarski. And I met Sarah basically, through the podcast. She was a listener of the podcast, reached out and we started talking via Instagram.

Alyssa Scolari:

Now, Sarah is an artist, an aspiring entrepreneur, a cat mom, and a mental health missionary. She recently graduated from college in May of 2021, and has been on a mission since then to work through her core wounds from childhood and early adult life.

Alyssa Scolari:

After four years of only doing CBT and feeling ready to be deeply challenged, she tried more intensive therapeutic approaches. These include trauma focused treatment centers, family therapy, EMDR, ketamine for major depressive disorder, and the use of a cranial electrotherapy stimulation device called Alpha-Stim.

Alyssa Scolari:

Sarah recently started a mental health focused Instagram called Vulnerable and Not Afraid, to share her recovery from trauma and educate people on other therapeutic options that have personally helped her. Now, we are talking about a really important topic today, and I know I say that shit every week. So, forgive my redundancy, but you know how I love all things, mental health.

Alyssa Scolari:

But I think that this is particularly, important because for the last two years on this podcast, we have spoken about therapy and treatment pretty much from like a standard outpatient setting. So, how to process things when you’re going to therapy once a week or twice a week in your standard outpatient setting. And that isn’t always enough. And there certainly, have been many times where it wasn’t enough for me. And I know that there are many people out there that hasn’t been enough for either including Sarah.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, we are talking about different treatment options for when you find yourself in a place where therapy once a week or twice a week is just not enough. So, with that said, I will stop talking and I’m going to turn it over to Sarah. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Tatarski:

Hello. I’m excited to be here.

Alyssa Scolari:

I’m really excited to have you. I know we were actually, supposed to record like a week ago, and then I had COVID and lost my voice and sounded like not even remotely myself. So, thank you for rescheduling and bearing with me. Let’s start out by saying, or by me asking you, like, tell me what even makes you passionate about this? If you’re comfortable, can you tell me about a little bit of your own experiences?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, in regards to seeking mental health treatment or my trauma or all of it? What particularly?

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. I think, you have a lot of experience and knowledge on alternative forms of treatment. And so, I guess what my question would be is like, did you get to a certain point in your life where you were like, “Hey, just going to therapy once a week isn’t enough for me?” How did you know what was going on in your life? Things like that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I’ve had a couple different, I guess you could say breaking points in my life. The first one was March 2019, and I had to take a medical withdrawal from school, but I instantly, felt better not being in school. The stressors were gone. I said, “Okay, cool. I can manage this.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And I trudged along December 2020 came, I had this dramatic memory that I didn’t remember resurface. I was living back at home with my mom and I was just spiraling like crazy. And that’s when my… The first time my therapist said, “Sarah, you need to go to this trauma center.” And I said, “Eh, we’ll see.” I told her the memory finally. And then, I felt better again.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I just trudge along, trudge along and finished school. And then, I just completely fell apart because post grad depression is real. I don’t think people talk about it enough. They’re like, “It’s so fun. Oh, my gosh, congrats.” And I said, “I’m miserable. And I have no path anymore. And I don’t know what the hell I’m doing.” And a lot of my friends went through this too, especially us graduated in 2020 and 2021, we were so burnt out from COVID and the huge changes we had to go through.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, for me, I said, “Oh, I’m going to take a break.” And that break turned into me, spiraling constantly. And it just got to a point in end of June where I was not really eating, I wasn’t really sleeping. That same memory came nagging at my brain. And my therapist said, “You need to forego your income and just go to a trauma center.” And I said, “Okay.”

Alyssa Scolari:

Ah, that’s a hard thing to hear. That’s a really hard thing to hear.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it just got to the breaking point then. And I had moved back home again in May 2021 with my mom, which didn’t realize back then, but she was a huge trigger, and I didn’t quite grasp why she was. And until later after all these therapies I’ve done, but I was just absolutely miserable. And I said, “Okay, you know what? I’m finally going to do this. I have the ability to not work. I have really good insurance. I’m going to take advantage of this.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, that was the line where I was, I’m just miserable every day in my life to the point where I don’t know if I can lip. So, that was my breaking point in June 2021.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, you’re saying like you were at that point where you were like, “I just don’t even know if I want to be alive anymore? Like, my safety might be on the line?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, I think we never struggled with SI, suicidal ideation much, but it was getting to that point where I just felt like, I don’t know, can I go forward in life? And that’s what motivated me to get different help and more intense help.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay. So, I really appreciate that you said that, because I think it’s very important to highlight that this country makes it seem like in order. I mean, I guess we can just also start out by saying that the system for higher levels of care, isn’t the greatest, it’s not the greatest.

Alyssa Scolari:

And so, on one hand, we shame people from talking about their suicidal thoughts, for fear of them getting locked up. But then, on the other hand, when people have suicidal thoughts, they are often told when they go to a hospital and they want treatment. They’re often told, “Well, you actually, have to make an attempt,” in order to be hospitalized or in order to not even just be hospitalized, but in order to eventually, get to a treatment center.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, I think it’s really, important that you said, “You know what? I’m not necessarily suicidal. I’m not necessarily a danger to myself, but I’m not okay with the quality of life that I currently have. And therefore, I’m seeking alternative forms of treatment,” because you don’t have to get to a point where your life is on the line to decide, to seek different forms of treatment. I love that you said that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. And definitely, I didn’t want to get to that point. And it was teetering between that. I’ve met friends at my trauma centers who are, have attempted, were attempting, got transferred from intensive care to where I was. And yeah, I don’t think it’s acknowledged enough that you don’t have to be either attempt or actively, planning to seek help because I didn’t want to get to that point. I never want to. And I hopefully, never will.

Alyssa Scolari:

You had mentioned a little while ago that you realized after different types of treatment, that your mom was a trigger for you. And one of the questions I have is, was it difficult for you to go to a treatment while living, because you had lived with your mom while doing some of this treatment, was it difficult to live with somebody who is a trigger while going to a treatment? Because I think a lot of people can probably, relate to that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it was a whole another challenge. I’m in my trauma for, let’s see, the first trauma center I went to, I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 p.m. I did therapy three times a week individually. We had groups all day, trauma groups, four times a week and relapse prevention, which was incredible, which by the way, I had no idea what relapse prevention was. And I said, “I don’t do drugs.”

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I just laughed it off until I got there and said, “Oh, I have a lot of toxic behaviors that are not related to alcohol or any kinds of other drugs.” So, life changing.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

But just doing that all day and having the realizations that I was having. And then, I come home… And by the way, I didn’t mention this. I’m in my childhood house where I experienced my trauma, and that is where I’m living right now.

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, my… Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

That’s a whole another level of, I’m living with a trigger, I’m living in a trigger, and I came home every day and I’m like, “Ah.” I’m like running around, like a chicken with its head cut off. I’m freaking out. I can’t ground myself. I can’t focus on my treatment. And the only relief I got was when I stayed with my friend for a whole week and I was like, “Oh.” I can come back, and I just lay in bed. I’m like, “I’m so happy and relaxed.” But it was extremely challenging. I don’t recommend it. I recommend anyone doing what I did.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

I mean, living with your trigger and living in the house you were abused. I recommend trauma treatment. Absolutely. Of course, I wouldn’t be on here otherwise recommending it. But it made the process that much harder because there was a point, I told my therapist, I said, “I just want to be a prostitute right now. And move out of my house.” And he’s like, “Sarah, no.” And I’m like, “But that’s how I feel.” And he said, “I’m not going to act on it.”

Sarah Tatarski:

But that’s how overwhelmed I am right now. It’s like, I will do anything to get out of my house. Of course, I never acted on it. But that’s the thought…

Alyssa Scolari:

Right. So, the point where…

Sarah Tatarski:

… that happened.

Alyssa Scolari:

… you’re considering. Yeah, you’re considering like prostitution or sex work to get out. You’re like, “I will do whatever I have to get out of this place.”

Sarah Tatarski:

Which is, there’s nothing wrong with sex work. It’s just not my… I have too much trauma to engage in that field sex workers. You’ll do whatever you want. But yeah, that’s just to the point. I was so vulnerable that that’s what I was just willing to do. And that’s not healthy situation to be in.

Alyssa Scolari:

I mean, right, exactly. It would be ideal. Again, like you said, there’s no issue with sex workers. It’s feeling like you’re trapped and you’re backed into a corner to the point where your only way out is considering an option that you know would be retraumatizing for you. That’s when you know all the alarm bells are sounding, you’re like, “Okay, I need to do something here.”

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. Yeah, it was very intense.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, then can you talk a little bit about, I guess, let’s go in specifically, like where should we start? What type of treatment did you start with? Because I know you’ve done a couple of different things.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, there were a lot of things I’ve done the past year. So, I’ll just briefly summarize. And then, if you want to ask more specific questions, we can go from there. But the first thing that I did was in July 2021, I went to a partial hospitalization program at a trauma center here in New Orleans called River Oaks, recommended fully.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I wasn’t living there. I was there from 9:00 to 4:00 like I had mentioned. You’re just there during the day, you don’t live in the hospital. It’s scary inside. I would not want to… Not wanting to stay there. I did not want to stay there. But…

Alyssa Scolari:

Scary like hospital setting type like?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yes, it was cold and there were not a lot of lights, and you went outside or not a lot of windows, and you went outside for like 20 minutes a day. It was like jail. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes, so many partial hospitalizations, like programs are like that. I’ve been to one myself and it feels like jail. And I’m like, “Why aren’t these a little bit happier? You’re trying to help people with their mental health, why do we feel like we’re locked up?”

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. So, I did that. And then, once I was done with that program, I started seeing a therapist for EMDR. And then, in December 2021, I went to a residential treatment program called Innova Grace in San Antonio, Texas. And I was doing a lot of EMDR there. I used the [inaudible 00:14:40] bed. I used the Alpha-Stim, which I’m wearing right now, like I mentioned earlier.

Sarah Tatarski:

And after that, continued to do EMDR, that’s what I’m doing with my therapist right now. I started ketamine for major depressive disorder. And now, I’m using the Alpha-Stim again. And forgot to mention on top of that, the past, however many months it’s been since August 2021. So, nine months, I’ve been in family therapy.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I’m doing 10 different therapies. And also, I recently, joined Adult Children of Alcoholics group and dysfunctional family. So, I’ve been going to that support group about every two weeks to every week. So, if you want me to expand on all of that, that’s a lot of different treatments that I just mentioned. So, happy to talk about any of it in more detail.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes, I have questions. I think the first question is, how did you end up getting involved in, especially in a post COVID world, in Adult Children of Alcoholic support group, because I think that there are many people out there who are listening, who would be very interested in that.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, there are always meetings everywhere in the country and world at all times. And a lot of them are on Zoom now, too, which is great. So, you can just hop on Zoom at any time. And for me, I prefer in-person group. So, I go to the one at the church near my house at 5:00 p.m. on Sundays.

Sarah Tatarski:

And the way to get involved is to just go to their website, look up Adult Children of Alcoholic/dysfunctional families. And if you want to go to in-person meeting, you can just look up your town and see where it is. And if you don’t want to go in-person, you can join literally any group, like from what I’ve seen online, probably, at least half of them are hybrid.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, you can go in-person if you want, you can go in Zoom if you want. But oh, when they read the laundry list, I don’t know if you’ve ever read that. It’s the 14 traits that you can have as an adult with having a dysfunctional family or an alcoholic. And I fit all 14 traits. So, that’s when I knew I belonged.

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, I don’t think that I’ve ever read that before, but I bet it would be very jarring for me.

Sarah Tatarski:

You will be surprised. And when I say all 14 traits, I don’t mean I have those now. I mean, at some point in my life, I have all 14 of them. So, even if you have one, I’m pretty sure, they’re like, if you have one of these traits, you are welcome here.

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow. Okay. And for the listeners out there, I will link that in the show notes, the website that you can go and you can check it out because I think it’s very important and I know that a lot of you can relate. So, okay, cool. So, thank you for that.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, now question about, so in terms of EMDR, I have, I think… So, I’m going through EMDR right now and I’ve been open about my experiences, both on my Instagram and I’ve shared a little bit on the podcast and we’ve also had people come on and talk about EMGR.

Alyssa Scolari:

I guess, the main question I have for you about EMGR because for those of you out there who don’t know what it is, I talk about it in depth with a licensed clinical social worker. Her name is Melissa Parks on the podcast, and you can feel free to go and check that out. It is a really fantastic treatment for trauma that focuses on rewiring your nervous system, like your brain. So, for EMGR, did you find that was particularly helpful for you?

Sarah Tatarski:

It’s definitely helped. It’s not perfect. Of course, no treatment is perfect, but I’ve honestly, been only able to work on and am working on two memories. But the thing about these specific memories I’m working on is that, they hold a key to other things that I can’t remember. And that’s why, my therapist says we’re going to keep working on these two. And I’m like, “No, I want to be done with them.”

Sarah Tatarski:

But it’s definitely, helped me to calm down in regards to my body not being as reactive. And I’ve noticed that the first memory that really resurfaced after about eight years and that drove me to get the help that I needed. My reaction to it has gone down a lot.

Sarah Tatarski:

My bodily reaction, I used to like throw up. I used to not eat. And now, it will come up and I’ll be like, “Okay, deep breath. It’s okay. You’re safe like, that’s not happening right now.” We’ve talked… I’ve talked about it many times. I opened up to friends, I went up to multiple therapists.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I’m able to calm myself down. On the past, I literally, I would line around like running around my house. I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. I’m scared, all this stuff. So, I significantly reduce my reactions while, and I don’t want people to think that it gets rid of the memory. I think some people are like, “I want to get rid of my memories.” And I’m like, “That’s not how it works.” But it reduces your bodily reaction to it.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I definitely notice, like I said, I’m not violently reacting, like I used to in the past. So, I found relief with it. My brain also likes to block me thinking about these two particular memories because there’s some of the most intense memories I have. But as I continue to work on it, I’m able to be less reactive and process it with my therapist.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that’s ultimately, right. There’s no such thing as a perfect treatment. But EMDR, I think is supposed to be beneficial at just like relaxing your nervous system. So, that like hyper vigilance isn’t there as much. All right. So, can you talk about Alpha-Stim, and then there was one other… What did you say in addition to Alpha-Stim?

Sarah Tatarski:

I’ve been doing ketamine for major depressive disorders. So, there’s that, in addition to the Alpha-Stim, family therapy, and then my trauma centers, and EMDR.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

Which is all like, they’re all interconnected, anyway.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right, right. And can you talk about Alpha-Stim? Because I think that’s a very new term. I’m not even familiar with Alpha-Stim.

Sarah Tatarski:

I am shocked at, I actually, spoke with a psychiatrist a couple of weeks ago. He monitors me when I’m doing ketamine. And I told him about it. He said, “I’ve never heard of that.” And I’m like, “Whew, this is alarming.” I’ll go into details about it, but I’ll give you a little bit of a history because I was wondering, why is this not talked about every single day? Why is this not open on the market? And I’ll tell you this.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I read about the history of Alpha-Stim. Yes, I’m a nerd. I read the little pamphlet that came with it. But so, the way that it works is, it uses biophysics and biophysics used to be taught in medical school up until the 20th century. And then, the chemistry took over and they stopped teaching biophysics. Of course, we know that pharmaceutical industry has a huge power over everything in this country.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I found that interesting that they used to teach biophysics, but now they don’t. And that’s probably, why it’s not really mainstream as you would want to call it. But I’ll just read you exactly, what they say from the website, because I don’t want to give any misinformation to y’all.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, the way that it works is, it’s cranial electrotherapy stimulation, and it uses small electrical currents to stimulate certain brain regions. And these currents mimic the electrical activity naturally occurring in the brain, which in turn regulates the electrical part of the brain’s electrical chemical signals. And this is how it helps you to get piece of calm. It basically, regulates you without any drugs, just pure biophysics, which our body is… It’s just a huge electrical network.

Sarah Tatarski:

And that’s how they use the power of our body to heal with the Alpha-Stim. And you have to use it consistently, like every day over months to really get the full benefits. But you feel benefits within even like a day, because I hadn’t used it in three months since I was at my last trauma center, and I got in the mail about two weeks ago. I put it on my ears and after, I was like, “I feel so much better already.” And I forgot how magical this thing is. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow. Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

It’s been incredible. I’m sleeping better. I’ve had one migraine the past 11 days. I usually, get them every single day of my life. So, I’m not making the stuff up whenever I would never tell anybody to go buy a medical device if it didn’t work. But I just feel so much better. I feel more rested, because I have chronic pain due to my trauma, and I just feel a lot more content with the past two weeks, which is hard for me to say, usually.

Alyssa Scolari:

I mean, yeah, that’s incredible is this. So, when you say like, I have this and I put it on my ears, like, is it, what is it? Are they just like little like sensory, like clips you put on your ears and you have like a little machine around your neck?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it’s literally this small.

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

Nobody can see it. It’s about the size of like a palm, or like a hand depending on how big your hands are. I know, I have a little… I’m small. So, my hands are a little small, but it’s about the size of my hand. And the way that it works is that, you put a solution on your ears, and then you clip the electrodes onto your ear. And it just sounds little, little electrical signal to your ear.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, you feel this very mild little prick to your ear, but it doesn’t hurt. And that’s it. You use it at your house. You can use it on an airplane. You can use it wherever you want to use it. It’s just like the size, even smaller than the iPhone. So, it’s so easy to carry around if you need it to use it anywhere.

Alyssa Scolari:

And is there like, is it something that like insurance covers, or do people just buy it out of pocket? Do they have to go through like a therapist or a treatment center or anything like that?

Sarah Tatarski:

So, from what I know, the only insurance that covers it is TRICARE through the military. And only if you’re active duty, will they pay for it in full, which is…

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

… annoying. So, without insurance, it costs $840. And while it sounds like a lot, the amount of money I’ve spent going to doctors asking, “What is wrong with me? Why am I in so much pain?” The amount of days I’ve missed work, the amount of days I’ve missed out on life, the $840 is beyond worth it.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

And some insurances may cover it. I don’t have that answer. My insurance is really good. And they said, “No.” They outright said, “We’re not even going to give you money back.” And I said, “That’s really frustrating.” And $840 is a lot for people. It’s a lot for me. But I got to a point where I was just breaking down and I was like, “I can’t do this. I cannot live like this every day of my life.”

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I took the plunge, I ordered it, I use it twice a day, and I just, I feel so much better. I can’t even emphasize. I wish I could show data to show how much less pain I’m in. But like I said, they have a nine out of 10-success rate, and they’ve been studying this for over 40 years. So, this isn’t something that’s new to the market. It’s not, “Oh, in 2020 we invented this device.” It’s 40 plus years of research.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. And it’s infuriating because it’s also one of those things where it’s like, like you said earlier, why is this not talked about more? And it’s like, “Well, because it’s so successful.” And when it’s so successful, who suffers big pharma because people require less and less treatment and medication. And therefore, if you heal, you aren’t going to be paying as much money on other forms of treatment like meds. It’s very, it’s no surprise that it’s one of those things that’s kept hush, hush because…

Sarah Tatarski:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because I’m not going to go too much on the tangent because then we would talk for hours. But the big pharma is based on a subscription model. They want you to be sick for your entire life. Why would they not want you to be? They want you to suffer. So, they make money. And that’s why I think, insurances aren’t going to cover it because they are very much tied into big pharma, of course.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I tell everybody since I got it the past two weeks, anyone that I meet or who was in my life, I’m like, “Pay the $840 if you can, it is worth every dime.” And I would never tell anybody to buy something if I really didn’t believe it, because that’s not like a $100. That’s 840. But…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yes.

Sarah Tatarski:

… Like I said, I mean, I’m sure the amount of us who’ve been through trauma or even if you haven’t been through significant amount of trauma, you probably, have some amount of pain from being on your computer all day. So, I just recommend it to anybody if you’re able to afford it or, save up to get it. It’s really, been incredible. And I’m so lucky that my trauma center, I went to in December to February had access to the Alpha-Stim for me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah. That’s incredible. And I will also link the website, the Alpha-Stim device on the show notes, so you can check that out. And then, so let’s talk about ketamine because this is one that I am more familiar with, but I have not spoken with anybody who has gone through it. So, can you talk about like what it is and what your experience is with it?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I will say there are different kinds of ketamine treatment. There’s the nasal spray, which I do. There’s the shot and there’s also IV. And I don’t know which form is the most intense, but I know that the IV one is you get a very strong high and it’s very strong, with Spravato, which is the ketamine that I do.

Sarah Tatarski:

I do two nasal sprays, one in each nose, and you can go up to three sprays or three doses. Sorry, I don’t know how many sprays it is, but I do the two. Some people do three doses. I’m very sensitive to drugs in general. So, I was like, “Let’s go with the lower one. I don’t want to get too high.” I would like to see how I feel first.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I started looking into do ketamine last fall and my insurance rejected me. I don’t know how I don’t qualify for it. I would just spent two months at a trauma center. I don’t know how they… Apparently, they didn’t want to cover it. I struggled with major depressive disorder.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, I felt really upset. And then, so kindly the clinic I went to called me and I said, “You know that the Johnson& Johnson Patient Assistance Foundation could help cover you, if you qualify, if you don’t make enough money, or if you don’t, there’s some income bracket level that I’m not 100% sure what it is. And if your insurance denies you, they could consider covering you for up to year, and then renew you.

Sarah Tatarski:

And so, I applied. I’ll be honest, I had been making $0. I’d just come out of a trauma center. So, I definitely knew I would qualify because one, my insurance rejected me. Two, my income was at zero at that point.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right.

Sarah Tatarski:

And they sent me a card, and for a full year they will cover it. And all I have to pay is, I think a $25 copay each time because out of pocket, it’s like $250. So, I’m extremely, lucky that the J&J Patient Assistance Foundation was covering me. And yeah, I started going in March 2022. It’s a big commitment, I will admit that. I don’t know what it’s like for, like I said, the IV or the shot.

Sarah Tatarski:

But with Spravato, you have to go twice a week for a month and you can’t drive yourself there or back because you’re too high. And then, the next month, you only go once a week. And then, after that is maintenance, if you choose. So…

Alyssa Scolari:

Wow.

Sarah Tatarski:

During the… Yeah, it’s a big commit. During the process, you’re just lying in a room for two hours by yourself. At least, that’s how my clinic does it. So, I’m just lying there and I’m like, “Hi, hi is heck in.” I’m just lying there. And it’s a really, nice time to almost meditate or just reflect for two hours. I literally, can’t do anything. I’m too high. I can’t barely look at my phone.

Sarah Tatarski:

And it’s been nice to have that reflection time, while I’m not exactly sure, exactly if it’s benefiting me because it’s hard. I had just come from a trauma center. I’m in therapy. I’m in family therapy. I have so many variables in my life that are helping me to heal that I can’t exactly say, is ketamine helped me because there’s just too many factors in my life right now that are helping me feel better. But that forced relaxation has been a challenge for me, because I struggle with relaxing and forcing myself to just exist in the world and just be…

Alyssa Scolari:

Right, as to many trauma survivors, yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

Exactly. So, that’s been one of the most healing aspects of ketamine is just being. I even cried during one session. I was like, “What are these emotions that are just suddenly coming up?” I was like, “This is healthy. What?”

Alyssa Scolari:

What is this? Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, it’s supposed to help people who struggle a lot with SI. Again, suicide ideation for people who don’t know the shorthand. But I have other friends who’ve done ketamine in different forms and they say, it has changed their life. Again, too many factors in my life are going on for me to give you a definite answer. Yes, it’s helping me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Hard to say. It’s hard to say, yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

But just being in that community, going to clinic every week and seeing the psychiatrist and stuff, it’s more nice to just like have a little community of little ketamine people and we talk to each other. So, that’s been nice.

Alyssa Scolari:

And there are restrictions because ketamine is a drug. So, are there like, do they do thorough evaluations on like, drug abuse history? Because I would imagine that can be tricky.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah. So, I forgot to mention. Of course, I had to do an evaluation. They had to even diagnose me because technically, I mean, there’s a lot of diagnoses that I have that are not diagnosed officially. So, they had to do that to make sure, and then send that evaluation to my insurance and be like, “Hey, she has major depressive disorder.”

Sarah Tatarski:

As a former… If you’re a recovering drug addict, you can still do ketamine, but you have to be heavily much more monitored than me for who doesn’t have a history of drug abuse. But definitely, they’re not just throwing it around and saying, “Oh, yeah, everybody can do ketamine.” Even if you have major depressive disorder, they need to clear you to make sure that you won’t relapse or that you’re being monitored on different levels to know that you’re okay throughout the process and not going to relapse into a drug addiction.

Alyssa Scolari:

Now, do you know like, okay, so EMDR helps relapse your nervous system. And similarly, do you know how ketamine is supposed to work like on the body?

Sarah Tatarski:

Yes. So, I was always thinking ketamine was a psychedelic, but it’s not. It slows down the brain and that’s what it does. It just slows everything down. You’re like in a drunken state while you’re in the room. And I think that feeling of, “Oh, I have time to really think and just exist in the world and relax and think about things in a different way. Instead of, with trauma, our anxiety is so high. Sometimes, we can’t even think straight. We’re just like, ruminating, ruminating, intrusive thoughts all the time.

Sarah Tatarski:

And yeah, that’s how it worked. It slows down the body. And I should mention that, if you’re on antidepressants, they want you to continue to stay on those throughout the process. They don’t want you to get off of it. And personally, I’m not on an antidepressant right now, but I still qualified because I had tried two different medications and it didn’t help me.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, if you have tried two different anxiety medications or depression meds and it didn’t work, you can qualify. So, that’s why I qualified. But they want you to stay on your antidepressants. And the other thing about Spravato is that, they say, “We don’t exactly know what it does. We just know it helps.” And so, welcome to big pharma, guys. They don’t exactly know what happened…

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah, you know it helps.

Sarah Tatarski:

But they say, “Hey, it helps.” So, I’m not complaining. But yeah, you have to be on or continue to remain on your antidepressants throughout the process. They don’t want you to cold quit in the middle of ketamine.

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay, yeah, yeah. I would imagine there’s also still so much research to be done about it because I do think it is newer.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, Spravato was approved I believe in 2019. So, it’s very new…

Alyssa Scolari:

Okay.

Sarah Tatarski:

… compared to other drugs.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yup, very new. And a lot of studies have been on halt because of the pandemic. So, we’re still learning. We’re still learning. Now, I do have one final question for you, if you don’t mind. And this is partially, a question that I have personally, but also a question I think a lot of other people will have.

Alyssa Scolari:

So, in going to different forms of therapy, right? It sounds like you have had good experiences, but I know that there are so many people out there who have tried alternative forms of therapy and have had bad experiences and places that are poorly run, places that do more harm than good. I know that have certainly, been the experience for myself and many others. What is some advice that you can give people who I think are just feeling down and out about the quality of mental healthcare that they’ve experienced?

Sarah Tatarski:

You have to go in with an open mind because these places are run by humans. I mean, like I said, at the first trauma center I went to, it was almost like a jail. And I left, thank God at 4:00 every day, I did not have to sleep there. And there is some stuff that would go down at night, for sure.

Sarah Tatarski:

Everybody in there has trauma and things happen. So, I think for me, none of the places I’ve been to, none of my therapists have been perfect. Perfection actually, doesn’t even exist in the world. So, doesn’t want to say that. But, I mean, of course, if there’s abuse going on, if there’s emotional abuse or physical abuse from the staff and staff, I’m not saying, “Oh, go in with an open mind,” just ignore it.

Alyssa Scolari:

Right.

Sarah Tatarski:

But I just know that if you go in thinking that everything’s going to be exactly right, everything’s going to run smoothly at whatever care center you’re at or whatever treatment you do, the reality is that, it won’t. And you’ll probably, be disappointed. I mean, there are definitely flaws at places that I’ve been to.

Sarah Tatarski:

The place I was just at, called Innova Grace. I have had tremendous healing from them. But there’s things that could be worked on. Absolutely, could be worked on to make it an even better program. But there are some things I just had to let go because I knew that doing therapy at Innova Grace twice a week and getting EMDR and I was in Texas. So, I was away from my mom. I was away from my childhood home. I was so grateful to be there, and to be able to have that help, that there are some things, if it wasn’t overly concerning that I just had to let go in the moment.

Alyssa Scolari:

Yeah.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I would complain, I would speak up if there’s something that made me uncomfortable and there were things that did change. And sometimes, it didn’t. But I also think another thing is, people might be disappointed in alternative treatments because you put in most of the work, if not all of it, therapists are there to guide you.

Sarah Tatarski:

And I think that’s something, I was naive in believing when I was younger, even probably, like two years ago, not even that long where I thought, “Oh, why isn’t this therapist fixing me? Why isn’t she doing this? Why X, Y, Z and all this stuff?” I was like, “Therapy only works if you’re as honest as you are. If you are, if you hold things from your therapist, you’re not going to make any progress. If you keep rejecting the way that you behave and act and that how resistant you are to treatment, you’re not going to get better. You can’t blame the treatment center. You can’t blame your therapist. Of course, again, some therapists suck. I just had a really, awful one from September to December. She told me… I said…

Alyssa Scolari:

Gosh.

Sarah Tatarski:

… “I just, I feel like I can’t go in public. And I feel like I can’t do things by myself. And I’m just, I’m so upset. I don’t know what’s wrong with me.” And she said, “Just do it.”

Alyssa Scolari:

Oh, wow. That’s great advice. Thank you, I never thought of that before.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, again, I just want to restate, there are people that are super problematic and there’s abuse in some of these places, there are. And I’m not saying to go in and be like, “Oh, yeah, ignore it and disassociate from it,” which is probably, how you coped this long. Don’t do that. But it is run by humans and it is how much you contribute.

Sarah Tatarski:

Because like I told you, before we started recording, one of my therapists, I told her, I said, “I’m really open.” And she called me out and she said, “No, you’re not, you’re not open.” And I’m like, “I got so guarded, and I’m like, whatever.” And then, I thought about it and I said, “She’s right.” And that’s how we proceeded forward. I was able to really, work with that therapist and get through so many deep things because I was just completely, honest with her and I let myself cry.

Sarah Tatarski:

So, that’s my advice, be open minded, just know the process isn’t perfect. If there are major concerns, voice them. If things don’t change, then maybe you need to try a different area, like a different place, a different therapist. And you have to contribute your full honesty and vulnerability to it, or else you will not heal. That’s something that I wish I had known when I was 19, when I started the journey.

Alyssa Scolari:

That is incredible advice. All of it, I agree. I mean, you said it perfectly, you said it perfectly. And I want to thank you for coming on the show because this is something that’s really, important to talk about. It’s something that you spoke a lot of hard truths that people I think really need to hear, hey, including myself. We all need to hear a lot of this stuff and it’s also very inspiring.

Alyssa Scolari:

And I think it certainly, has given me a lot of hope for the future and for my own recovery. And it’s hope that we wouldn’t have without your willingness to be vulnerable and come on here and talk about it. So, thank you so, so much. I know that I mentioned Sarah’s Instagram in the beginning of this episode, which the name is? Can you give the name one more time?

Sarah Tatarski:

Vulnerable and Not Afraid.

Alyssa Scolari:

Vulnerable and Not Afraid. You know that will be in the show notes for today’s episode. And I just want to say thank you again for coming on the show today.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, it was so great talking to you, and I’m happy to answer any of the listeners questions if they directly message you or you can directly message me on my Instagram, I’m happy to do a call or send a voice memo, share resources. That’s, I mean, the whole reason I started the Instagram, partly for myself to remind myself, “Hey, this is where I’ve been.” And to help others realize that antidepressants and once a week therapy are not the only choices out there.

Alyssa Scolari:

Amen. Amen. Thank you so, so much, Sarah.

Sarah Tatarski:

Yeah, no problem.

Alyssa Scolari:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So, please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 105: When Weekly Therapy Isn’t Enough with Sarah Tatarski appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

What is up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, here with you today. We have also my dog Macy, who is chilling out with us, looking out the window in this little… I bought her this cat perch. So if you haven’t been on my Instagram and you don’t see pictures of Macy, she’s a little seven-pound dog, and so she is super tiny and she loves to look out the window, so I bought her a cat perch. She’s sitting behind me looking out the window on her little cat perch. And sometimes neighbors will walk by and she’ll bark at them and they wave to her from the window. She’s like the neighborhood watchdog. So that’s where I’m at today.

Alyssa Scolari [01:12]:

It is Sunday when I am recording this and I have been having a pretty relaxing weekend. I’m feeling pretty antsy today, actually, and I have been reading this book, Where the Crawdads Sing, which I did not know this, but apparently is really trending right now and I understand why, because it is truly one of the best books I’ve ever read in my life. I am obsessed. I have not been able to put it down and I have like 60 pages left, and I am going to finish it today. I am so excited. It’s been nice to be able to read in this ridiculously hot weather.

Alyssa Scolari [01:58]:

I don’t know what the weather is like where you’re at, but it is so hot here and it has been so hot with zero relief. Normally it gets really hot, but then you’ll have thunderstorms at the end of the day and then things cool off for a little bit and the plants get a ton of water, but there has been no rain, no thunderstorms. It is just oppressive heat and humidity day after day, and it feels like… I honestly think that this is probably day eight or nine at least above 90 degrees Fahrenheit. It’s so wild to me because people say global warming’s not a thing, but I remember being little and watching the news and people were making such a big deal of three-day heat waves. So if there was going to be a day where it was going to be 90 degrees or above for three days, I think that’s what they call a heat wave. I remember people making a huge deal about that being like, “Oh man, three days. This is so dangerous. People are going to have heat strokes and get really sick and suffer heat exhaustion.”

Alyssa Scolari [03:19]:

I don’t think anybody imagined back then, whatever it was, 25, 20 years ago that today in 2022, we would have heat waves that last for literally 9, 10 days with zero relief. It’s unreal to me. Even my plants are all wilted. No matter how much water we give them, my plants are like, “Fuck this, I’m out.” They all look like they’re dying and I feel so bad. I have no clue what I can do. So yeah, it is hot as shit outside and I’m over it. I like the summer, but come on. I need at least a thunderstorm. Give me a thunderstorm, because if not, I just have this heat and oppressive humidity. You walk outside and just start sweating.

Alyssa Scolari [04:18]:

Anyway, I digress. Today we are talking about shoplifting, which at first glance, you might be like, “Why are we talking about shoplifting on a trauma podcast?” And that is because they are related and they go hand-in-hand. Shoplifting or stealing and mental health are really closely related, and shoplifting, like borderline personality disorder that we did last week, is often stigmatized. And understandably so, right? It is a crime. It is against the frigging law to steal, but I think that this conversation today is going to pose an even greater question of how can we look at shoplifting a little bit differently and are we doing the right thing by simply finding these people or just locking them up? Is there something more that we could be doing to help these people? Because I have worked with a lot of people who have gotten in trouble for shoplifting.

Alyssa Scolari [05:27]:

Before I was in private practice and working for myself, I worked for a local police department and what one of my many jobs was at this police department was to help kids in the community to stay out of the juvenile justice system, so help basically rehabilitate them after they get into trouble. Now, as you can imagine, the majority of the kids that I saw usually got in trouble for some kind of theft or shoplifting, and it begs the question, why are these kids stealing? Because it’s not just a fun pastime for these kids. These kids don’t want to catch charges. They do not want to be caught up in the juvenile justice system. So what is going on with these kids?

Alyssa Scolari [06:23]:

Through a lot of my time, not just working with these kids through the police department, but also in going back in my own history, I have been able to put a lot of the pieces together as to what might be happening with so many of these people. And it’s not just kids, it’s also adults. And it’s not just me. There are a lot of other professionals out there who have been exploring the other sides of shoplifting to try to understand what is truly going on. Now, of course we can assign poverty and lower socioeconomic statuses to stealing. I get it. It is impossible to live in today’s age. It feels nearly impossible. So I totally understand that.

Alyssa Scolari [07:19]:

There’s the poverty aspect, and then there’s also other psychological aspects to it. It isn’t just this simple act that we think it is. When we see people who steal, we write them off as bad people. Bad people. And again, yes, stealing is criminalized, but I don’t know any one of us who have never broken the law. I don’t know any one of us who have never broken the law in some way, shape or form.

Alyssa Scolari [07:53]:

If you’ve pulled out your phone to text while you’re driving, if you’ve talked on the phone while you’re driving, if you’ve never stopped or if you haven’t stopped fully at a stop sign and you rolled through a stop sign, hey, you broke the law. If the speed limit is 65 miles an hour and you’re going 66 miles an hour, hey, you broke the law. And for some reason, it’s like we talk about when people break the law in vehicles or people are acting aggressive on the road and we talk about “Well, try to think of it differently. Try to think about that person who blew past the red light or is speeding. Maybe they have a loved one sick and dying in the hospital and they’re rushing to get there.” And so we try to reframe and find these ways to have compassion for people who are aggressive on the road. And I love that reframe. It’s a great reframe. It helps. It helps those of us who are prone to road rage not be so ragey, but why can’t we transfer this over to other crimes like stealing?

Alyssa Scolari [09:00]:

And I’m not talking about all crimes. I’m not saying that we need to have compassion for murderers, but I’m talking about like stealing. Why are there no reframes for that? Why is it that when we hear that somebody steals, we think that they should rot in jail or be fined or be shown a lesson and we want to send these kids to scared straight programs. Why aren’t we looking at this any differently?

Alyssa Scolari [09:27]:

Luckily, I think that a lot of research is starting to look at shoplifting differently, and what we’re finding is that it is a coping mechanism. It is a coping mechanism, just like addiction or gambling. It is something that can give people some sense of control, and it also can help them to numb out from problems or pain. And it also can be a cry for help. I wasn’t a chronic stealer or anything. I have like two instances in my life where I remember stealing and both of them weren’t from stores because I had too much anxiety for that. They were from other people. So one time I stole… I don’t know if anybody remembers these candies, they’re Warheads and they were really, really sour when you put them in your mouth and then they were super sweet. I’m talking about them now and I really want one. I need to go find them online and see if they still exist, because they were so amazing. But they were super, super sour when you put them in your mouth, and I remember stealing a few of these from, I cannot remember who, I just remember having them in my hand and looking down and kind of having this feeling of like, “Oh, I stole something.”

Alyssa Scolari [11:00]:

At the time, I remember that feeling was like I didn’t really even feel that guilty. I felt like I had a sense of control. I was really little. I was under, probably under seven years old. I was maybe five or six and I remember feeling like I finally had a sense of control over what was going on. I did this, I took this. This is mine. And that clearly is rooted in things that are so beyond the stealing itself. This is something that a lot of younger kids will do. They steal not because they’re bad kids, and it’s also not because they don’t know right from wrong and it’s not because we don’t know consequences. We know that it’s wrong, but what is more wrong are the empty feelings that we have inside of us or the chaotic feelings as a result of living in bad environments.

Alyssa Scolari [12:09]:

Kids who live in frantic, chaotic, and even sometimes violent and abusive households, they yearn for a sense of control. They desire a sense of control. And sometimes being able to steal something, being able to have something that is totally yours is a great way to feel like you’re in control. It’s a great way to feel like you’re separate from your family for a little bit because you are the one who did this. You planned this, you did it, you have it, you succeeded. It is a great way to numb out from what is going on, regardless of the consequences. Kids aren’t thinking about the consequences. Their brains are not developed enough. What kids are thinking of is, “Hey, how can I survive? And I know that I can survive if I find some sense of control,” and sometimes that control lies within stealing.

Alyssa Scolari [13:06]:

And then I also stole something from my cousin. I stole a purse from my cousin when I was little. I cannot remember. I know I was under 10. Maybe I was like eight years old. We were at a Super Bowl party and I stole her purse from her. I totally got caught because what eight-year-old can hide a whole purse? And that, I felt horrible. I don’t know if I really did it to have a sense of control, maybe I did, but I remember feeling so much guilt and I don’t really even know why I did it. I remember being asked why I did it and I truly didn’t know then and I don’t totally know now, but looking back on it, I am pretty sure that I did it because I was just crying out for help. I was crying out for help. And that is also what shoplifting can be, a cry for help. I want somebody to catch me. I want to be noticed. I want to be seen. I want somebody to look at me and make me feel like I matter.

Alyssa Scolari [14:25]:

Kids and adults alike, sometimes when we go without this and we feel like we aren’t seen or heard, we will make efforts to be seen and heard in any way possible, and that includes breaking the law. Now, luckily it was my family and everybody was super forgiving. I think, I assume so, because I still had a relationship with these people. I didn’t steal from any stores, it was just people and it was awful. I gave it back and there was no harm, no foul, but still, it was terrible. It was terrible when I look back on it because I realize that I was in so much pain and so are many people who steal and shoplift. It’s just a way to numb out, because in doing it, what happens?

Alyssa Scolari [15:25]:

Anybody who has stolen anything, I can imagine… I don’t really remember feeling like this when I was little, but I can imagine that what you feel is an adrenaline rush. An adrenaline rush, anxiety and you’re just so focused on not getting caught that you’re not really thinking about anything else. Then when you get away with it, it’s a dopamine hit for your brain. And it is very similar with shopping, buying things. When people are sad, they will spend money, call it retail therapy, and then they get it and they feel great for a few days or maybe a few weeks or maybe even a few minutes, depending on what you get, but that wears off and then you’re left with those same chronic feelings of emptiness. This is very similar with shoplifting. You steal something and then you have this dopamine hit like, “Oh my gosh, I did it. I got away with it,” and then all of a sudden that emptiness comes back and therefore you need to steal something again, so then you get that little dopamine hit in your brain again.

Alyssa Scolari [16:37]:

Sometimes all of this stealing can mount into a much more serious mental health disorder like kleptomania, which is where you just cannot resist the urge or the impulse to steal things, whether you need them or not. Just because it’s there, you have to steal it. And sometimes that’s what this can turn into. It still can be a cry for help. It still can be a reaction to psychological stress or trauma and that begs the question, are shoplifting charges good? Is that actually going to teach anybody anything, or do what we need to do instead is teach people better coping skills for how they can deal with their pain, or do we need to be looking at, if it’s a child, do we need to be looking at what is going on in the home? Is there trauma? Is there abuse? Is there toxic stress on this child? Should we be checking off all of those boxes before we make the decision whether or not somebody’s going to be charged with shoplifting?

Alyssa Scolari [17:52]:

I don’t know. I don’t have the answer. I know this is kind of tying into criminal justice reform, but here’s the thing, even if you never got caught, that still doesn’t mean that your shoplifting doesn’t have a psychological impact or isn’t rooted in psychological-based issues. It doesn’t mean that you’re not numbing out just because you’ve never been caught. If you have had a history of stealing or if you currently have a history of stealing, a lot of times people feel shame about it. And if you feel shame about it, this episode is really to help you put that shame aside and try to look at it from a different lens. Is it that you are a bad kid? Is it that you are a bad person or are you a person who is hurting and is coping by stealing?

Alyssa Scolari [18:57]:

Ultimately, I don’t know the answer. That’s something that you can only find within yourself, but I will say this, I have yet to meet a person, child or adult, who steals truly because they just love it as a sport. I have yet to meet somebody like that. Now, my sample size is biased because I see people that come to me for therapy so I’m sure people like that out there exist. In fact, I’m positive people out there like that exist, but those kind of people I don’t think are listening to this podcast. So if you are listening to this podcast and you have a history of stealing, I think it begs the question, is there any kind of compassion that you can give yourself? And if you’re still actively in your shoplifting or stealing phase, ask yourself what you need. What void is stealing trying to fill for you and how can you fill that void in a safer way?

Alyssa Scolari [20:09]:

I know for me, I never learned to fill the void, but I was lucky enough that shoplifting didn’t become my addiction. Food, eating disorders became my vice, so I ended up filling that void in another way, but a dangerous way as well, but one that was more dangerous to me. So be careful not to fill, not to replace one vice with another vice. What do you need that is going to be healthy for you and the environment around you? I love you. I hope you have a good week and I will be holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [20:58]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

[singing]

The post Episode 104: Shoplifting: A Response to Psychological Distress with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com

Transcripts:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari.

Alyssa Scolari [00:32]:

Welcome back, settle in because we have another good episode for you today. I am trying to get settled in as well, trying to get ready to chat with you all about borderline personality disorder, but I hope that everybody is enjoying their summer. I feel like we’re at that point in the summer where everything just flies by and make the most of it because I’m already hearing talk about fantasy football and I’m like, “Oh God already, please no.” Now summer’s not my favorite season by any stretch. I don’t love the heat, but I’m also just not quite ready to talk about fall football and all things pumpkin spice flavored. I’m just not, I’m not ready for that at all. So just hold on to every second because summer is flying.

Alyssa Scolari [01:34]:

I feel like I’ve been working so much this summer and it’s really just on a lot of like future things. I have a really exciting project that I am going to announce in just a few short weeks that we’ll be launching in the fall. And then I’ve just been working on my website stuff and client stuff, and kind of mapping out the future of where I want my practice to go on the podcast. So I feel like it’s just been a summer where I’ve been so busy, and when I’m not busy with work, I have been really busy with EMDR. As many of you know, I’m going through that process. And I know I’ve said in the past that it has been kicking my butt, but man, I mean it more than ever, I feel like I’m now really in the depths of it, of just going through my memories chronologically and reprocessing them.

Alyssa Scolari [02:32]:

And I think particularly the last week or so has been really, really difficult. My brain is, and this is what is to be expected, honestly, this just means that I’m doing it right. I mean, if you can do EMDR, right. But this is really what’s been happening it feels like my brain is on fire and I’m hypersensitive to everything. So even more so than I was before, every noise, every sound, I’m almost overly reading people’s emotions and their facial responses. And this is something that I used to do when I was little because I had a person in my life who was really hot and cold. I never knew what version of them that I was going to get. And so I find that I’m like that even more right now, as I’m reprocessing everything,

Alyssa Scolari [03:28]:

I’m looking at people like, who are you today? Are you safe today? Are you going to hurt me today? And none of that is even about the present, right? Because I don’t have people in my life that are going to hurt me. So I’m really just kind of, not I’m disassociated, or maybe emotional flashbacks. And I’m also having a lot of new memories surface. In the car yesterday we were driving, something was said. And of course, what was said was harmless, but whatever, it did trigger something in me. And then I started having new memories and the memories were auditory. So I could hear things. And it was one of those just really bad PTSD episodes/attacks is what it feels like, where I’m just like, I almost want to put my hands over my ears to stop what I hear, but that’s not going to work because the flashbacks are just, it’s my brain.

Alyssa Scolari [04:33]:

And I found myself in EMDR this week while I was reprocessing a memory feeling so much dread because there’s so much, I don’t remember, but I know is in there. And I found myself almost feeling like, “Oh, this is a movie I don’t want to watch.” Almost like I was watching a horror movie. I hate horror movies and I will cover my eyes because I’m very scared of them. I have enough anxiety. I don’t need a movie to give me more anxiety. So I will always put my hands over my face when I’m watching a horror movie. And this is what that felt like I wanted to just stop and I didn’t want to see the rest of the movie.

Alyssa Scolari [05:24]:

But the movie is reality and there was just so much grief that came with it. And there was a lot of self-compassion, which I think is pretty new for me. I’m not used to having a lot of compassion. I’m used to intellectualizing things and I’m used to finding ways where I was at fault for what happened, but I’m just really developing a lot of compassion for myself. And it’s been a beautiful, painful, agonizing thing. And it’s also been exhausting.

Alyssa Scolari [06:05]:

So I’m definitely a little withdrawn. I’m a little isolated and it’s really to protect myself. I don’t even think it’s a bad thing. I think that it’s probably best right now if I don’t have a ton of contact because I’m already so depleted from this process. So it’s taking me a while to respond to people. And really all I want to do is read books because I get to escape that way and play really nontriggering video games and cook good food and do some really slow yoga.

Alyssa Scolari [06:45]:

That is kind of where I’m at. I’m at how can I do the bare minimum? And I think that’s okay. I’m okay with that. I’m okay. I’m okay with that. You know, I say maybe I’m trying to convince myself I’m okay with it because I’m one of those over-functioners, so it is a little bit hard for me to be still in my grief, but I’m doing my best to just let it wash over me. And it is, and it’s so random, right?

Alyssa Scolari [07:16]:

Sitting in the car yesterday, this was a completely separate incident. We’re in the car. My husband runs into the store to grab something. I stay in the car and when he comes back in five minutes, I’m sobbing. I am hysterically crying and shaking. And he was like, “What is wrong?” And it was just like I got hit with this wave of grief.

Alyssa Scolari [07:39]:

And I have to say, I’m really proud of myself because I’m not running from it anymore. And normally I would run from it. I would pick up my phone and maybe go on social media to try to distract from feelings or turn on the radio. And, and I did for a second, I turned on the radio when I felt all those feelings creeping in. And I was like, “Nah, let me listen to music. I don’t want to feel this.” And then I was just like, “Alyssa, you don’t have to run from this. It’s not going to kill you.” I actually said that out loud to myself and I just let the tears come and I sobbed and it moved through me and then I was able to manage the rest of the day.

Alyssa Scolari [08:27]:

So I’m hanging in there. This is, I think, one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself, as hard as it is I know it’s exactly where I need to be right now. So I am so proud of myself for all of the work that I am doing. I’m just so proud. I’m really proud that’s all I can say. I’ve worked so hard and it’s going to make me a happier human being and it’s going to make me an even better therapist and yeah, yeah. That’s where I’m at. So that being said, we will close up the corner on my life updates and now let’s just dive into what we’re talking about today because we’re talking about borderline personality disorder.

Alyssa Scolari [09:16]:

It’s also often referred to as BPD, and maybe you have been diagnosed with this and if you haven’t been diagnosed with it, then I’m sure you’ve heard of it because it’s one of, well, I think it’s the most highly stigmatized of the mental health disorders in existence to the point where a lot of therapists refuse to work with somebody if they even utter the words BPD or the acronym BPD or the words borderline personality disorder, not every therapist, but a lot of therapists.

Alyssa Scolari [09:51]:

And I can even recall so much stigmatization when I was learning about it, even as a grad school student. So the stigma is quite literally in the system, right? I was taught the stigma. I was taught to believe the stigma when I was a grad school student. And, I definitely had, again, not every professor. I had amazing professors where I went to school, but I did have one professor who I specifically remember was like, “You are going to really have a hard time ever having successful treatment with somebody who has this kind of disorder.” And quite honestly, I know now that is not true. And I wish I could go back and tell that professor that they were just projecting their own frustrations. Perhaps they’ve been diagnosed with this disorder, or perhaps they worked with people in their practice who were diagnosed with this disorder and didn’t have a good outcome, but I will continue to talk about that a little bit.

Alyssa Scolari [10:53]:

But first, you might notice the term personality disorder, right? And it’s like, “What does that mean?” Because it’s much more clear what anxiety disorders and depressive disorders are, but what does it mean to have a personality disorder? Basically, there are personality disorders, and then there’s everything else. That’s kind of how it’s separated in the DSM, which is the book that has all of the mental health diagnoses.

Alyssa Scolari [11:23]:

What makes a personality disorder different is that this is thought to be like a lifelong long-term pattern of behaviors that cause distress and dysfunction. This person’s behaviors deviate outside of the cultural norm and it’s typically something that starts either in adolescence or very early adulthood. And it’s kind of thought that personality disorders are much more difficult to treat because these patterns of behavior are much more inflexible. It’s just deeply rooted in who somebody is.

Alyssa Scolari [12:06]:

So that is what kind of separates personality disorders versus mood disorders, anxiety disorders, what have you. Now borderline personality disorders specifically, because there are a few, right? Borderline’s not the only one there’s, narcissistic personality disorder, there’s an obsessive-compulsive person of personality disorder, and OCD, basically obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, which this is just an interesting little fact is having OCD but not seeing a problem with the OCD and therefore not wanting to change. That is one of the biggest differences between somebody who has obsessive-compulsive personality disorder versus obsessive-compulsive disorder. So I find that very interesting and I don’t know if I buy into that totally because I have people who technically meet the criteria for OCD or for obsessive-compulsive personality disorder, right? They have OCD tendencies but they don’t really see a problem and don’t want to fix it, but it’s not really causing a whole lot of distress.

Alyssa Scolari [13:23]:

I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s a topic for another time. We’ll talk about it later. I have to give it some more thought, but going back to BPD. So BPD is basically characterized by having to meet at least five of the following requirements. So first we have chronic feelings of emptiness, and then there’s emotional instability in the way that you react to regular day-to-day events, maybe having major episodes of sadness or rage or severe anxiety. Next is frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. So you spend so much of your time trying to avoid feeling any feelings of possible abandonment, a disturbance in your identity or an unstable sense of self or an unstable self-image.

Alyssa Scolari [14:26]:

There’s impulsive behavior in at least two areas that could be self-damaging. So this can include substance abuse, driving recklessly, binge eating, and having risky sex. I’m not, not just having sex, but, risky sex, maybe sex with multiple partners or having sex a lot with no protection. Spending lots of money. So if you’re just living paycheck to paycheck, or maybe you’re gathering a bunch of credit card debt, those kinds of impulsive behaviors.

Alyssa Scolari [15:02]:

Intense anger, anger that is so intense that it doesn’t necessarily match the situation at hand or issues with controlling your anger, explosive anger, getting into fights a lot, whether physical or verbal. Having unstable interpersonal relationships. So unstable relationships with the people in your life. Difficulty keeping friendships. Difficulty with family members, difficulty with maintaining healthy relationships. Suicidal behavior, suicidal gestures, self-harming, threats, threats of suicide, and usually severe dissociative symptoms. So dissociation is a form of disconnection. It’s a form of almost checking out mentally so that you don’t have to be present.

Alyssa Scolari [16:02]:

Dissociation is typically a trauma response. And I know we talked about this a few episodes ago, how sometimes dissociation can be a healthy thing in very moderate amounts, but this is more like dissociative symptoms as a reaction to trauma, or as a reaction to something, some kind of intense situation.

Alyssa Scolari [16:26]:

Another thing that I think ties into all of that is folks who have borderline personality disorder will often engage in something called splitting. And basically what that means is you see the world in a very black and white manner. So it’s things are kind of all or nothing. People are either amazing or they’re absolutely horrible devils. An experience you had was either the best thing you’ve ever experienced in your entire life, or it was so bad it was absolutely the worst ever. And so there’s really just no middle ground for people who experience borderline personality disorder.

Alyssa Scolari [17:06]:

So all of those symptoms that I just read off to you, right? You have to meet five of them in order to meet the criteria to be diagnosed with this disorder. Now, if you meet these criteria for two weeks, and then you no longer meet this criteria, you don’t have borderline personality disorder. This is a pattern of behavior that stretches over a long period of time, if not lifelong. So in fact, borderline personality disorder and all of the personality disorders, you typically can’t get diagnosed with one of them until you’re about 18 years old because your personality is still developing. I kind of think that’s a little bit of bullshit and I think that it should be at least 25 years old until you’re diagnosed with a personality disorder because our brains haven’t even fully developed until that age. So when you’re diagnosing somebody at 18 years old with a personality disorder, know their brains aren’t even fully developed.

Alyssa Scolari [18:15]:

So how do you know? How, how do you know, right? The criteria for BPD is, one of them is, impulsivity. Well, guess what? At 18 years old, your prefrontal cortex isn’t fully developed and your prefrontal cortex is what governs impulsivity. It’s what helps stop impulsivity. So I sort of feel like it’s stupid, but what do I know? I’m just a low old therapist over here. But here is where I start to get really worked up about borderline personality disorder and it is because of the stigma.

Alyssa Scolari [18:52]:

You can Google this any day of the week and you will find several articles about how borderline personality disorder is one of the most stigmatized, misunderstood, mental health disorders in the profession. And it isn’t just misunderstood among doctors and regular society. It is misunderstood by therapists and it is a diagnosis that is handed to people, very haphazardly by therapists and professionals who truly don’t know much about this disorder at all.

Alyssa Scolari [19:35]:

And it infuriates me. And this has been my experience with BPD. So I’ll talk a little bit about the stigma, just that I’ve experienced through my own journey of health.

Alyssa Scolari [19:47]:

So when I first started out in an eating disorder treatment center, I met with a psychiatrist. I met with him probably for 20 minutes, and it was my first time ever meeting with a psychiatrist. And he asked me a few things. And then he looked at me, he didn’t make eye contact with me the entire time we were talking. And then at the end, he looked at me and he went, “You have borderline personality disorder and you need to be on this, this, and this medication. And do you have any questions?” Now I had no clue what he was talking about. I had loosely heard of the term, but I don’t even think I was in grad school yet, or maybe I had just started grad school. So I really didn’t know much at all.

Alyssa Scolari [20:44]:

So I kind of was labeled that. He didn’t know me. He had no clue about my history of trauma. He was just like, “Oh, okay. This is what you have.” And I didn’t know then the stigma of that disorder. And honestly, I had just kind of forgotten about it. I hated where I went to treatment. So I just got through it. I kind of wrote the whole place off. Looking back at that now it infuriates me that somebody could talk to you for 20 minutes and give you a personality disorder. You have no clue what that person’s patterns are, their behaviors. How could you diagnose somebody with that after 20 minutes?

Alyssa Scolari [21:37]:

But I do remember that there was one instance where I was with one of the employees who worked at this place and this person was talking about borderline personality disorder and this person said, very matter of fact, “There’s no treatment for it. You can’t get better. All you can really do is manage it. You’ll have this forever. And it’s really hard to ever have any kind of good relationships with this disorder.” And she’s just said it very flat. And so I remember thinking like, “Oh my God, if I really do have this, I’m going to be alone forever. I’m never going to be in a marriage. I’m never going to have friends. Holy crap, this is awful.” And I kind of almost, not made it a self-fulfilling prophecy, because that didn’t really happen for me. I was able to sort of see over time that was such a horrible thing and a very hurtful thing that she said, but it really brought me down. And it really made me question my future for a while.

Alyssa Scolari [22:54]:

So moving on, then eventually I graduate from treatment and I find a regular outpatient therapist and I am going to see her and I like her, and she’s cool. And about a few months in, this therapist, I noticed, starts talking more about herself than me. And she talks about the other people that she sees and doesn’t give me specifics but tells me way more than is actually appropriate. And she works with sex offenders and she’s talking to me about them and how a lot of people can’t do the work that she does. And then she goes, “But at least I don’t have to work with the borderlines because as you’ll see in grad school, they’re a nightmare.” And I was horrified that a therapist could say that about humans, absolutely horrified. First of all, the borderlines, like so nasty, just that language. It was awful.

Alyssa Scolari [24:10]:

So eventually I fell away from that therapist and I found myself with another therapist and this therapist and I had spoken extensively about the diagnosis of BPD. And this therapist had sort of like told me, “Yeah, I really don’t see that in you. You really don’t have any of that.” And I was kind of like relieved because there was so much stigma that was surrounding this diagnosis, that it almost became this game of how can I not have this disorder as opposed to how can I fix my trauma? And so this therapist was like, “Yeah, you really don’t have that.” And one day I went in for my appointment and the person who was ahead of me, there was like a little waiting room, and the person who was ahead of me opened up the door, stormed out and slammed the door.

Alyssa Scolari [25:17]:

And my therapist at the time came out and pointed at that person and went, now that is a borderline, a borderline, first of all, like the level of inappropriateness, it makes my skin crawl. And then we kind of talked about it a little bit. And she was talking about how people who have borderline personality disorder are super treatment-resistant and they always fail in therapy. And they always drop out because they can’t respect anybody’s boundaries. And they’re highly manipulative. And I really looked up to this therapist. So I’m just like, “Oh, oh, okay, I guess that’s how people are then.” So you can kind of see here this pattern, even from my own experiences, of hearing people talk about borderline, like they’re the worst people on the face of the planet. First of all, they’re people with borderline personality disorder, they’re not borderlines.

Alyssa Scolari [26:20]:

And for people to talk about them like, “Oh, they never do well in treatment.” It’s such bullshit. And over time I had new therapists who really helped me see folks who have borderline personality disorder in a totally different light, right? I had different therapists. I had a supervisor, all of whom have been fantastic and who have truly helped me understand that this diagnosis is not something to be afraid of.

Alyssa Scolari [26:56]:

There are therapists that will outright reject people who have that diagnosis. Therapists will still talk about people with that diagnosis saying that they’re impossible to treat. They are not impossible to treat. And as I’ve learned, I actually really enjoy working with people who have borderline personality disorder. People who have BPD are not fucking evil. And if you’ve ever been made to feel like you are, I am so sorry. And I am here to tell you that is fucked up and that is not about you. That is about your therapist’s own projections of their own issues. If it was your therapist who said that, or who made you feel like that?

Alyssa Scolari [27:43]:

If you go back and you look at the diagnosis, the symptoms for BPD, so many of them, in fact, all of them can also be symptoms of complex trauma, hello. People who have BPD do not have issues with their brain. They have been fucking horribly traumatized. How can you expect somebody, right people, therapists love to say, “Ah, people with BPG they don’t know any boundaries and they’ll, they’ll manipulate you all day.” How could you expect somebody to know what boundaries look like if their whole childhood was full of their boundaries, being violated. If somebody comes into therapy and their whole lives, they’ve had to use manipulation as a tactic to get their needs met. Why would you think for two seconds that they won’t try to manipulate you?

Alyssa Scolari [28:49]:

Manipulation in itself is not evil and we need to stop treating it like it is. People come to therapy with the same patterns and behaviors that they learned from their trauma. And if you want to call it a personality disorder, go right ahead. But I, for one, just feel like using that, almost just as “Hey, you’re fucked up.” Now don’t get me wrong. For some people having this diagnosis is hugely validating. And for those folks, I’m like, “Yes, do it.” If it’s validating, then it’s validating. And that’s great. But for people who have battled with being diagnosed with this disorder over and over again and stigmatized as a result of it, if it doesn’t feel like it fits you, it’s okay to let that go. You don’t have to say, “Oh, I have BPD, Oh I have BPD. This is going to be the rest of my life. I’m going to struggle for the rest of my life.” No, you’re fucking not. No, you’re fucking not.

Alyssa Scolari [29:55]:

It infuriates me, as you can tell, because I have worked with people with BPD and I have watched them recover to the point where they don’t meet the criteria for that disorder anymore. BPD is a result so often of complex trauma. And if we start treating the trauma, right, there’s a treatment for borderline personality disorder. It’s called DBT or Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. And it’s really something that was created for people with borderline personality disorder. And it’s great. It teaches so many wonderful skills. If we use that and we treat the trauma that is underneath it, I have seen people that no longer meet the criteria for that diagnosis. And more importantly, I have seen people that are successful and live happy and healthy lives, and they can be self-harm free and they no longer feel suicidal. And they are in functioning relationships. It doesn’t mean all their problems have gone away. Absolutely not, but it can happen.

Alyssa Scolari [31:08]:

There is so much hope if you have BPD. And again, if you’ve ever been made to feel like your mental health is hopeless because of this diagnosis. I’m so sorry. And that is part of why I wanted to talk about this today is because I wanted to fight the stigma because this stigma, I’ve experienced the stigma firsthand, I’ve been thrown out that diagnosis. And what I know now about myself is no, I don’t have BPD. I have trauma. I have a crap load of complex trauma that I have been working through. And I have gotten to a place where it’s just like, yeah, no. For me, that diagnosis felt more harmful than validating and I think that’s because I’m so acutely aware of the stigma.

Alyssa Scolari [32:04]:

Now, again, if this is something that feels good for you, if it helps you to have this diagnosis, please don’t let me talk you out of that. Because despite the stigma that I’m talking about for every bad therapist out there, there are a million great therapists who would never stigmatize people. And there are a million people out there who have this diagnosis and have found it super validating and helpful.

Alyssa Scolari [32:34]:

But I’ve also talked with plenty of people who have had this diagnosis used against them, haphazardly given to them. I’ve had 10-year-olds that have come to me and told me that previous therapists have given them a diagnosis of borderline personality disorder. Their parents come to me in disarray, frantic about what this is going to mean for the future of their child. And it’s just not like that. There is hope. There is hope. No matter how you feel about the diagnosis, there is, there is hope. And that’s my message today. You have hope. I believe in you. I know you can do it. I love you. And I am holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [33:19]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod.

Alyssa Scolari [33:36]:

Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey friends. What’s up? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we are going to get right into it today. So, this episode topic was actually Dave’s idea. So if you don’t like it, blame Dave. No, I’m kidding. But seriously, it was his idea, and it’s something that I have been wanting to do for a while. And it’s like, I guess I struggled with it because I feel like everybody’s healing journey is different.

Alyssa Scolari [01:04]:

With that being said, I think through my experience as a therapist and through my own healing journeys and through having friends, and other colleagues in the field who have gone through their own healing journeys, I notice very similar patterns throughout the journey, and I wanted to talk about those today. Right? Because I think that a lot of people assume when they sign up for … not when they sign up, but if you decide that you want to start healing, whether it’s from your eating disorder or trauma or addiction, right, I think that people have this idea that when they start therapy, and this is me assuming that this is like you going to a standard once a week therapist. Right? I think people assume that when you start therapy, it only can get better from the moment you start.

Alyssa Scolari [02:05]:

Like once you make that decision to begin your healing process, a lot of people have this idea that it’s like, “Well, things are only going to get better.” And unfortunately not to burst anybody’s bubble, I don’t see that it works like that. It certainly didn’t work like that for me. And for a lot of folks that I know, and that I have worked with who have complex trauma, that definitely has not been the case. Now, if somebody is coming in with standard PTSD, right, there’s been a singular incident in which they are struggling. Yes, that certainly can be the case once you start therapy, things can get better. But what I’m talking about here is healing from complex trauma. And that process does not look like, “Oh, I started therapy and now I feel so much better.” It is much, much different. Right?

Alyssa Scolari [03:07]:

And because a lot of people will ask us, “Well, you’ve been in therapy for three months, don’t you feel better?” And I think those of us that perhaps live with people who don’t understand complex trauma or who don’t get how therapy works, we have people say things to us like, I know my mom used to say this to me, not all the time, but every once in a while, she’d be like, “Do you feel like your therapist is helping at all?” And it’s just like, “I don’t know how to answer that because it’s not that my therapist wasn’t helping, it’s just that there’s so much that it’s hard to know, three months into therapy, if anything is helping.” And that’s just not what people expect. People look at it very similar to maybe going to a doctor. Right? “Well, you’ve been seeing this doctor for three weeks, so why hasn’t your arthritis flare gone down or whatever the heck it may be?”

Alyssa Scolari [04:08]:

So I’m here to get pretty real and raw with you about what the healing journey actually looks like. And also just what it has looked like for me and where I’m at right now. I believe that healing is lifelong. And with that said, though, I don’t believe that your suffering is lifelong. I think there is certainly happiness to be found, even if you aren’t a 100% healed, because honestly, can any of us be a 100% healed? I mean, just look at what’s going on in the world.

Alyssa Scolari [04:43]:

I think all of us have experienced collective trauma from the mass shootings, our children being gunned down, rights being taken away. Like how can we live through all this stuff? Right? A global pandemic and then say, “Oh, I’m completely healed.” That’s the thing about trauma, is that it doesn’t go away. It’s not like once we’ve been traumatized once, well, that’s it, and we never ever experience any trauma. We will experience it down the road. And that will probably further our healing in some way.

Alyssa Scolari [05:23]:

Now, again, please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that you have to continue to be traumatized in order to heal. But what I’m saying is life is fucking hard. And so, you can’t get to a place where you’re 40 and you’re like, “Oh, I’ve completely healed.” And expect that nothing traumatizing or triggering is going to affect you for the rest of your life. I just don’t think that’s realistic. So, many people when they come to me and this is myself included, they don’t usually walk in the office. Again, this was the case for me. I didn’t walk into my therapist’s office saying I have complex trauma and I need help with this. Hey, some people do do that, and that’s amazing.

Alyssa Scolari [06:16]:

But typically, we don’t even realize we have complex trauma. And instead what we think we want help with is whatever vice we have turned to to be able to cope with what we’re not dealing with, with what we’re not feeling, our eating disorder serves as a numbing tool. Your addiction serves as a numbing tool, whatever it may be, even I believe this, right, anxiety disorders, like OCD serves as a numbing tool. Many therapists agree with me, a lot of people, I think treat OCD as just this singular disorder that’s like, you have to combat the obsessions. Right? You have to just not give in. And once you do that, then your OCD will go away.

Alyssa Scolari [07:13]:

I don’t necessarily believe that to be true. I actually just took a training, where this woman said that, she works with OCD and she basically was like, “The only treatment for this is having people not give in to their obsessions.” And yes, that is super important, but I think a lot of OCD specialists are going to say that, that need for control with OCD is almost always rooted in some kind of trauma. So, I actually don’t know what the research is on that, and I will look into it, but in all of the work that I’ve done and just talking to other OCD specialists, that’s what people would agree on.

Alyssa Scolari [07:59]:

So even so many disorders can be a reaction, not just eating disorders and addiction, but OCD, or perhaps social anxiety disorder, agoraphobia, all of these things can likely, not always, be linked to some type of trauma. So most people, when they go into therapy, they are looking to treat the symptom of their trauma, and that symptom is another disorder. For me, it was an eating disorder. I struggled with an eating disorder, I mean, my whole life. I started counting points probably as early as eight years old, and I just struggled my entire life with …

Alyssa Scolari [08:50]:

I was overweight and everybody in my family was on Weight Watchers, and everybody used to tell me that our family had a weight problem and that we needed to be dieters our whole lives. So I just thought from very early on that I needed to restrict my food intake. And then as I was older, that led to binge eating. So I would sneak food. I have this one distinct memory. I don’t think I’ve talked about this on this podcast. I’ve talked about it when I was a guest on Guy Macpherson’s The Trauma Therapist, but this specific memory I was really young. I can’t remember how old, but I remember I took a stick of butter from the fridge and I went and hid in the garage, and I was just eating a stick of butter.

Alyssa Scolari [09:43]:

So, that’s where all of my restriction led me as just a little kid. And so, basically I spent 20 years up a hundred pounds down, a hundred pounds every new diet. And when I would gain weight, people really ignored me. I felt super ignored and unseen, but as soon as I lost weight, everybody praised me. I was well known in my town for being this huge success story. People wanted to know how I did it, where I got the willpower from. I was fucking dying, and I wish I could go back to all those people now and tell them I was fucking dying.

Alyssa Scolari [10:30]:

Of course, I can’t do that, but when I went into therapy, that is what I wanted help with. I wanted help on how to let go of my eating disorder. Because at that point I was binging almost daily, and I just couldn’t stop myself. I felt like I had no control, and I would just pray day after day. Like, “Please let me get rid of this eating disorder.” So that’s how I started out. I want to get rid of this eating disorder. And over time my eating disorder started to go away. I remember sitting in my therapist’s office and I would say to her like, “Why can’t this eating disorder just be gone?” And she would be like, “Because it’s not about the food.”

Alyssa Scolari [11:21]:

And I would get so mad at her because I would be like, “Are you fucking dumb? Yes, it is about the food, stop fucking telling me it’s not about the food.” And as much as I hate to admit this, she was absolutely right. It was not about the food for me. It was about trying to numb out what I was feeling. And how I came to learn this is because I started to look at what was happening during those moments I was binge eating, and a lot of times it would be after something upsetting happened. Maybe I got yelled at by my boss, or I had a fight with my mom or things were really bad at home. And I would be sitting at the drive through, in some kind of fast food restaurant eating until I could not breathe.

Alyssa Scolari [12:16]:

That is how I started to learn, “Oh, okay. I don’t think the problem is that I don’t have willpower, I think the problem is I’m really trying to numb out.” For me it was anger. I am a chronic people pleaser. Well, I’m a recovered people pleaser, but I was a people pleaser back then. And so when I had bad feelings, it was never safe for me to show them. So I stuffed my feelings down with food. At the same time, I had internalized so much fat phobia and diet culture that I hated eating. So, I would do my best then to restrict and starve, but then when I starved, it worked out for me because all of my hunger cues shut off and I couldn’t feel anything. I couldn’t feel anything in my body.

Alyssa Scolari [13:16]:

So I definitely couldn’t feel anger or rage or depression or sadness. So I started to learn in that process that my eating disorder was deeply tied to my emotions. And that is the case for so many people, they come in with whatever disorder it is they might be struggling with. And then they start to unpack it and they start to realize the emotional ties between their disorder, their vice and their emotions. They realize that connection. Now I wish I could say that it got better from here, because it sounds great. You’re like, “Oh, wonderful. I realized I made this connection. Well, now I can just heal.” But it actually doesn’t work like that in my experience, this is where things get really hard.

Alyssa Scolari [14:10]:

In terms of a timeline, it’s really hard to give a timeline, because everybody is so different. For me, it happened probably a year into therapy. For the people that I work with, it usually takes a couple of months. So it’s really different for everybody, and I can’t give a timeline, unfortunately, but it does start getting harder because then what happens is, people start to let go of their defenses or their vices.

Alyssa Scolari [14:48]:

And I started to let go of my eating disorder. I started to become more in tune for the first time in probably 20 years, I started to become more in tune with my emotions. And now this is also what happens with so many of the people that I work with. They start to become more in tune with their feelings, and it feels like the pits of hell. And I don’t even think that is an exaggeration. If you have been through it, you understand, because you’re letting go of your coping mechanism.

Alyssa Scolari [15:24]:

And so now all that’s there are the feelings that you have been running from for however long. And so it doesn’t feel like, “Oh, yay. I’m in touch with my feelings again.” It feels like, “Oh my God, these emotions are going to kill me.” And I think that that’s actually understandable because your brain is just trying to keep you alive. Your brain is a beautiful, wonderful thing. Kiss your brain, that is what my husband’s old boss always used to say, “Kiss your brain, kiss your brain.” And my husband now says it to me all the time. If I’m having a really bad day and I’m like, “Ah, I wish I didn’t have a traumatized brain.” He’ll be like, “You kiss your brain.”

Alyssa Scolari [16:02]:

Because my brain has worked so hard to keep me alive, and so has yours. It is a beautiful thing that your brain does where it blocks out feelings because those feelings are so intense that we feel like they’re going to kill us. Now, they’re not going to, especially if you are in a place where you are surrounded with support and safety. Right? If you have a therapist who is well versed in trauma, then you are okay, as long as you have a good connection with this therapist.

Alyssa Scolari [16:32]:

I had a therapist who was well versed in trauma, and it was a fucking nightmare. That was before, I now have two therapists, as many of you know, because I’m doing EMDR right now. And both of my therapists are the bomb. So anyway, this is when things get really difficult. You might find yourself really depressed, you might find yourself crying all the time, you might find yourself fully in touch with a rage that feels so intense. It feels like you might lose your mind. This is where coping skills are so effective.

Alyssa Scolari [17:12]:

I hate when therapists just talk about coping skills being the be all end all therapy, learn some coping skills. Because if you are not allowing yourself to feel your feelings and truly feel them, then you are honestly not going to really need those coping skills, because you’re never going to let go of your eating disorder or your addiction. Right? Coping skills when it comes to complex trauma recovery are crucial when you let go of your other disorders or your other vices and become fully in touch with your emotions. Because at this point, what you’re doing is you’ve shifted from eating disorder recovery or addiction and you have now shifted into trauma work. You are now taking a look at all of the people in your life and the patterns and the behaviors that have led up to this point. And it can feel so overwhelming.

Alyssa Scolari [18:22]:

I know we’ve talked about this before. Some people don’t even remember until they start doing the trauma work. And then they have all of these new memories that come to the surface and they learn things that they weren’t even sure really happened, maybe they might have thought happened, but they always told themselves, “No, there’s no way that happened.” It’s learning about your past and seeing it in a much different light. And it is absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking and infuriating, and sometimes it feels like there’s nothing you can do, but sit back and watch the last, I don’t know, let’s say 30 years of your life unfolds in a way you’ve never seen it unfold before.

Alyssa Scolari [19:13]:

And I say this not because I want to deter you from making the decision to heal, it is the best decision ever. I say this because I want there to be realistic expectations about what it is like. In fact, when people start to get fully in touch with their trauma and the feelings behind it, oftentimes those defenses or those vices or those other disorders will come back tenfold, because your brain is just doing what it knows how to do best, which is protect you. So my brain, right, let’s say like my eating disorder and my OCD, because those are two of my vices, that is what always comes back to the surface. Through EMDR right now, I am processing memories.

Alyssa Scolari [20:05]:

I’ve talked about EMDR in previous episodes, it’s been awesome so far. I’m still very new at it. So, I will talk more about it. But when I am getting in touch with a lot of these little childhood memories, I will notice that my OCD will spike through the roof. Like last night I was having a literal knock on wood. If you’ve seen the movie, Encanto, and you’ve seen Bruno is his name, and you’ve seen like he will knock on wood at different parts of the movie. That can be a part of OCD, and that certainly is for me, I have to knock on wood when I have a thought. And like last night I was knocking on wood because I kept having all of these thoughts. And I was like, “Man, this is getting bad.”

Alyssa Scolari [20:59]:

My OCD popped back up because I was processing a really painful childhood memory, and my brain was like, “What are you doing? We don’t think of this stuff. We don’t feel these feelings. I’m going to need you to stop, and I’m going to distract you from these feelings with this OCD.” And for people with eating disorders, it’s the same thing. Once people start to get fully in touch with their trauma and the pain that comes with that, I often see them they’ll come into my office and they’ll be like, “I’ve been thinking about stepping on the scale again, or I’ve been thinking about starting a new diet, or I need to get myself to the gym more often.” And it’s all distraction. It’s all distraction to help you really manage or avoid the pain that you’re feeling about the other stuff that is going on.

Alyssa Scolari [21:58]:

So, it gets worse before it gets better, because this is the point in your healing journey, where you no longer can avoid knowing about your past and maybe some family stuff, but you also are just afraid to move forward. And it can be a really sticky time for folks. It was a really sticky time for me. And unfortunately, when I was at this place, I didn’t have a therapist who was safe, and this therapist was pushing me in ways that I should have never been pushed. And I almost lost my life in the process quite literally.

Alyssa Scolari [22:38]:

So, I can’t emphasize enough the importance of being with somebody that you truly feel safe with and somebody who isn’t going to push you, is going to meet you exactly where you’re at. Unless of course, you’re engaging in behaviors that could end your life, then yeah, your therapist is going to need to push you. But when I say push, I mean, your therapist should not be pushing you to talk about memories or family stuff. If you ever have a therapist that says, “You got to talk about this stuff in order to feel better.” No, you do not. If your therapist says that, get up and walk right the fuck out. Because that is what was told to me and forcing myself to speak about things prematurely, literally almost took my life away.

Alyssa Scolari [23:25]:

So, just a little caveat there, but yeah, this is when it gets difficult. This is when it gets really, really hard, but you can get through it because this is when you learn, A, coping skills, but B, how to be your own best friend advocate and parent. A lot of us with complex trauma, we look back on our childhoods and we are devastated because we see that there was nobody there for us. But what we do through this next part of the healing process is we learn how to be there for ourselves. We learn how to be the hero we always needed. So this part, isn’t all doom and gloom, yet it’s really hard, but we learn how to save ourselves. And that is the most empowering thing in the whole world.

Alyssa Scolari [24:30]:

Over time, your grief shifts, it transforms. At first this grief feels all consuming and it feels like it’s going to suck you up into a black hole of despair. I can promise you, it does not stay that way. As long as you don’t fight it, you will move through it. I made the mistake of fighting it time and time and time again, for years, I have fought my grief. I’ve run from my grief and from the feelings of abandonment. And the more I ran, the more my body acted out. Right? If it wasn’t my eating disorder, it was my endometriosis. It was an autoimmune disease. I was just holding all of this stuff in my body, because I was too afraid to feel it.

Alyssa Scolari [25:23]:

And then I made the decision that enough is enough, and that I have to move forward and I have taken my pain and I have shifted it from this big black hole of despair to something that I can actually do something with, in the form of being able to help other people, in the form of being a voice for the voiceless, being an advocate, being an ally, I have taken my pain and I have used it to help others, but I have also taken my pain and I have used it to make my own family. And what I mean by that is like, I have taken what I have been through and I have become better because of it. I have decided that I am going to give myself the life now that I always deserved.

Alyssa Scolari [26:23]:

I am only going to have people in my life who I can communicate appropriate with. I will not engage with people who abuse me. I will create safety. I will have a family of my own, and I will raise my child so that she or he, or they feels so safe and never once questions if I love them, if I believe in them. And I’m not saying you have to go on and have children in order to heal, because my healing has come and I don’t have children, it’s come because I have cultivated a space of safety. I wake up every day and I look at my life and I think, “God damn Alyssa, look at how far you’ve come.”

Alyssa Scolari [27:09]:

From feeling like the pain was so bad that I didn’t want to live anymore, from six years ago when my husband and I met, I had an eating disorder. I was so sick with anorexia that when he would cook for me, I would sob because I didn’t know how much salt he put in the food. I would induce, vomiting all the time. I was an over exerciser, and I look at my life today and I think, “Damn, I don’t worry about that anymore.” I wake up, I enjoy breakfast. I have coffee. When he cooks for me, it’s a great day. I go out to eat and I don’t panic. I know that he is safe. I know that I am in a safe home. I have surrounded myself with everything that I love that makes me happy. I have learned how to be my own best friend and my own parent. And I have a picture of little me in the mirror, in my bedroom, and I check in with her every so often.

Alyssa Scolari [28:15]:

“Hey, how you Dylan, are you doing okay?” And if we’re not doing okay, what can I do for her? What can I do with eight year old me? That is where you get to, when you get through the darkest of the healing process. It absolutely gets worse before it gets better, but I promise you when it gets better, it gets so good. I am able to do things that I never thought I would live long enough to do. And yes, there are times when I struggle. Right now, EMDR not going to lie. I’m struggling. And I’ll say just a word about that. You do not have to do EMDR in order to heal and get better. Right? I have worked with loads of people, I am not an EMDR specialist, I have worked with loads of people who have achieved healing while not doing EMDR.

Alyssa Scolari [29:11]:

And the reason I’m doing it is because I notice that my nervous system, despite all of my healing, is completely out of whack. And what I mean by that is this, I have come a long way in the fact that I know that I’m safe, and if something happens, I know I’m okay. I used to get really, really scared if my husband would get angry and he’s not at all a rager, but he’s entitled to get pissed off every once in a while. Like we all do. But because I’m so afraid of angry people, or I was so afraid of angry people, I would get really, really triggered. And my nervous system would just go through the roof. Like my heart would start racing. I would start sweating. I wouldn’t be able to breathe. I would want to cry.

Alyssa Scolari [30:04]:

And in my brain consciously, I knew everything was fine. I would be so frustrated with myself because I would be like, “It’s literally not a big deal that he’s getting mad.” But my body didn’t understand that, my body was off to the races, I was in fight or flight mode and I could not calm down. And I know it’s not good for my body, right, to constantly have my nervous system on edge, to constantly have my cortisol levels spiking. I knew it was really bad for my body. So, I wanted to do something about that, and EMDR is a really great way to just rewire the brain a little bit and get the right brain talking to the left side of the brain and make it so that I am not so hypervigilant and so reactive.

Alyssa Scolari [30:53]:

So that is why I have decided to further my healing journey with EMDR. Not everybody has to do that, not everybody needs it. I think it is amazing. But it’s really a personal decision. So, along the way, right, there’s going to be so many little caveats, and nobody’s healing journey is the same, but this is a pattern that I often see with myself and with people I work with, where you come in to treat a more surface level disorder. And then as you treat that, you start to get more in touch with the trauma that’s behind the disorder. And then we start the grieving process, and really start learning how to best take care of yourself. Especially given the fact that you weren’t cared for, right, when you were younger, if you have complex trauma.

Alyssa Scolari [31:53]:

And once you’re able to do that, you are frigging unstoppable because you know that at the end of the day, the safest place is you. And for so many trauma survivors, when we start therapy, we don’t feel safe at all. We spend our whole lives trying to escape our bodies. But at the other end is this beautiful, beautiful concept that you are so at home in your body and you are so safe, and paradise and peace is you.

Alyssa Scolari [32:33]:

So, I hope that this has been helpful to at least give you a brief outline. I mean, not brief. Right? This is like 40 minutes. But to talk a little bit about the process, like what can you expect out of healing? It hurts like hell. But I mean, I can’t help, but sit here and smile as I say this, because I just think of my own journey, and I think like, “Damn, I saved my own life.” And as a result, I get to help so many other people, and I also get to enjoy spending time with myself.

Alyssa Scolari [33:09]:

I get to enjoy nurturing younger me. I get to spend the rest of my life taking care of the child in me. And I want to, because I love her, and you can do the same. So if you are in the pits of it right now, I need you to hang on, I need you to tie it, not in your rope and I need you to hang on, because if there was anything that I wish I could go back and tell myself even six years ago, it is that, it doesn’t stay like this forever. And the other side is, it’s almost the equivalent to seeing the world in colors that I just couldn’t see before.

Alyssa Scolari [33:56]:

I appreciate everything so much more now, and you can too, and I want nothing but the best for all of you. Hang in, hold on, love yourself through this. You’re going to make it. I know it. I love you, I am holding you in the light, and I will see you next week.

Alyssa Scolari [34:20]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 102: What to Expect from the Healing Process with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

The post Episode 101: How to Cope When the Worlds Feels Unsafe with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

To learn more about the different love languages, please see Gary Chapman’s book: The Five Love Languages: How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

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You can also check out Alyssa at www.alyssascolari.com

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hey everybody. It is your host Alyssa Scolari. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast and most especially, happy 100th episode. We are officially in triple digits. I don’t know how that happened. I have no clue. It has been almost two years since the podcast started and I can’t even wrap my brain around it. We are a hundred episodes in, and it has been so much fun every step of the way. I remember being in the pandemic right at the beginning when everything was supposed to shut down for only two weeks. And I remember thinking to myself, I have to do something to help people that are suffering. I have to do something to help people have a greater understanding about mental health. And it sort of just dawned on me like, “Oh, I really want to start a podcast.”

Alyssa Scolari [01:28]:

That is a great way to reach people and to be able to provide people with free access to mental health education. So I remember I get all these reminders on my phone from Facebook, I guess, as my equipment would come in, like my podcast microphone. I would take a picture of it and I would put it on my story. So I keep getting little reminders on my social media from that two years ago and it is mind boggling and I’m really honored to be here. There are times when the podcast has really stressed me out and has felt like a lot. But honestly, for the most part, I have been loving every second of it and I have formed friendships with, I think so many of you. I have amazing friendships right now that I would’ve never had if it weren’t for this podcast, whether it’s people who have been on the show, whether it is people who have contacted me after hearing the podcast and we just connected on social media.

Alyssa Scolari [02:38]:

I just feel like I have friends all over the world and you have been right by my side, listening to me, not just share my story, but be vulnerable. Because I shared my story, but I share my story for the most part, as I’m going through things. And it has been great to feel the support. It has been great to be able to give support in the form of education about mental health. It’s just been great. It’s all been great. I don’t even have any words. I don’t have any words. So if you and I have talked and we’re friends, thank you. I love you. If you and I have never spoken, but you just listened to the podcast. Thank you. I love you. We are going to keep going until, I don’t know when. I don’t know, we’re just going to keep going. We’re going to keep doing it. So thank you so much for all your support. I would honestly never be here without you.

Alyssa Scolari [03:46]:

And if you are continuing to like what you hear and you haven’t done so already, I kindly ask that you please leave a rating or review of the podcast because those ratings really help the podcast to continue to grow and to reach a wider audience so more people can get the mental health education and support and the trauma focused education that they need. That would be great. And without further ado, let’s get into it today. So I thought for the hundredth episode, we could talk about something maybe a little bit more fun. Listen, I always think that mental health stuff is fun, but of course it can be very, very serious. So I thought maybe we would just dial it back a notch and talk about something that I think is really cool. So today I wanted to talk about the five love languages, which I always think are interesting and relate to absolutely everybody.

Alyssa Scolari [04:42]:

The five love languages, I’m sure most of you have heard of this. But if you have not heard of this so far, it’s based on a book by a PhD, Gary Chapman, who was a therapist who worked a lot with couples and with people in complicated relationships. And he wrote this book titled, The Five Love Languages, and the book was released in 1992. And basically what this book is it’s a collection of his extensive research as a therapist and he takes kind of everything that he has seen throughout his career. And he condenses people’s communication patterns and how couples communicate love. He condenses it all into five basic categories and calls them love languages. Now it’s important to remember about love languages, that when we talk about it’s not just between romantic partners. Love languages, it’s quite literally how we express our love to the people in our lives that we want to express love to. But it’s also how we like to be loved by the people in our lives who love us. So it is both. So these love languages are not super old, definitely a newer concept.

Alyssa Scolari [06:18]:

Like I said, it came out in the nineties, 1992 specifically, the year I was born. So it is as old as I am. It is 30 years old, which is not very old. And if you’re listening out there and you think 30 is old, we need to talk. I’m just kidding, kind of, ish. Anyway, so what are the love languages? All right, let’s break it down. So we have words of affirmation. We have physical touch. We have receiving gifts. Quality time and acts of service. And we are going to get into what that means. So what are words of affirmation? Well, it seems kind of self-explanatory, but basically it’s using your language to tell somebody that you love them. And it’s not just, I love you. I love you. I love you. It’s more like you are verbally encouraging somebody. You are validating them. You are affirming them.

Alyssa Scolari [07:16]:

You are actively listening to them and giving them feedback and that feedback is really encouraging. This is the person who is a talker, if you need to just talk through things and you need to hear validation, you need to hear reassurance constantly. You might be a words of affirmation person. That might be your love language. Now, I think it’s important to note that I think you can have multiple of these. I think that every relationship needs all of these and I’m not a couple’s therapist. So don’t quote me on that, but I kind of look at all these and I’m like, “I think that all of them are important.” So this isn’t to say that you only need one for a relationship to survive, but rather there’s usually one of these that rings more true for you than it does for any of the other ones.

Alyssa Scolari [08:23]:

So folks whose love language is words of affirmation, they really appreciate things like handwritten notes. They like cards for birthdays and anniversaries. They love it when you send them a text in the middle of the day, just, “Hey, I’m thinking about you. I love you.” They love that stuff. That is how they feel the most loved. Now, maybe this isn’t how you like to receive love, because personally, it’s not how I like to receive love and I’m not saying words of affirmation are bad. I like them. They’re great. I like when my partner tells me that he loves me, but I don’t need it. It’s not my oxygen, so to speak. But maybe you are somebody who gives words of affirmation and that is how you communicate your love. So you can have one love language that’s your way of communicating, love to others and a totally different love language that’s your way of liking to receive love.

Alyssa Scolari [09:32]:

And that’s definitely the case for me. I tend to be a words of affirmation person when it comes to giving love, which honestly does that surprise anybody given the fact that I’m a therapist? Is anybody shocked by this? No, I totally show my love and my care and my concern with my clients and my friends and my husband, by words of affirmation. I’m actively listening. I’m encouraging. I’m affirming people all of the time and this is not with my clients, but with the friends in my life, with the loved ones in my life and with my partner. I will make handwritten cards or I will send an unexpected note. I know I used to do those things when David and I first started dating. I don’t so much anymore, although I probably should now that I think about it, but that is something I am much more likely to do.

Alyssa Scolari [10:33]:

But when I receive things like that, I like it, but it doesn’t necessarily just do it for me, if you know what I mean. So the next that we’re going to talk about is physical touch. When people hear this, physical touch as a love language, everybody’s brain jumps, not everybody but most people’s brain jumps to the same thing, which is sex. Or like, “Oh, if you’re a love, language is physical touch, then you just want to be having sex all of the time.” I’ve had so many people that I’ve spoken to about love languages who didn’t really understand what physical touch meant. When I say my love language is physical touch because that is my love language, people look at me almost kind of sideways. And I’m like, “That’s not what it means.” Yes. When it comes to physical touch, sex and intimacy can be a part of it.

Alyssa Scolari [11:32]:

And that is a part of it, but there are other things that are also really important when it comes to physical touch. And it’s more just nonverbal body language. So I like hugging. I kind of like kissing, but I’m more hugging is where it’s at for me. But also I like when somebody, when I say somebody I’m talking about David. I like when David will play with my hair or just give me a foot rub or just rub my back, whatever kind of physical touch. Again, non-sexual, I love it. It is the best thing ever to me. Now on the same kind of topic, I don’t really appreciate, it’s not that I don’t appreciate it. But I don’t show my love through physical time. You will not see me opening my arms and reaching out to hold somebody and initiating any kind of physical contact.

Alyssa Scolari [12:47]:

I don’t do that. I think because it’s definitely partially due to my history of sexual abuse. I like touch, but it’s somebody that I have to feel really, really safe with. So I’m not likely to go right to physical touch as a love language for friends or acquaintances or anything like that. And again, it’s not that my friends aren’t safe. People like my friends are incredibly safe people. It’s more so just that I feel like there’s a different level of safety that’s accessed with David. That just sort of makes me really be able to tap into my desire for physical touch, without having my defenses up or my nervous system kind of reactive as a result of my sexual trauma. So physical touch is my number one. That is my love language, but I am not really one to give a whole lot when it comes to, I guess I should say, I’m not really one to show my love through physical touch.

Alyssa Scolari [13:59]:

I like to receive through physical touch. So the next one is gift giving, receiving gifts. And this one really, again, is exactly as it sounds, it’s putting thought into buying things, not even buying things, making things. It could also be like, “Hey, I made you muffins.” When David and I first started dating, we would often bond over our love for food, which honestly we still do. That has never gone away. And where I lived with my parents, there was this really great Italian shop with the best cannolis. And so he also loves blueberry and they made blueberry cannolis. We worked together, we first met at work together. So I would often bring him blueberry cannolis to work. Aside from this though, I’m not much of a gift giver to the point where if I have a close friend whose birthday is coming up, or even if David’s birthday is coming up, I panic over what I’m going to get somebody for their birthday.

Alyssa Scolari [15:10]:

It is such an anxiety thing for me. I’m like, “Okay, well I know this person loves, I don’t know, plants. So I think I’m going to get this person a plant. But what if I pick the one plant that they hate, or what if I pick the one plant in the world that they happen to be allergic to?” That is just so my intrusive thoughts. I just think about all the ways in which my gift is going to be the worst thing ever. And so gift giving gives me too much anxiety. I don’t like it. I, of course, can receive it. I actually get very overwhelmed when people give me gifts. I will cry, happy tears, but I will still cry. I very much enjoy receiving gifts, but it makes me very emotional that somebody would even think of me and be so kind as to give me a gift.

Alyssa Scolari [16:08]:

So I definitely enjoy receiving this as a love language, but I have way too much anxiety to be able to really give it. And when I say it, I mean any kind of thoughtful gifts or thoughtful gestures. So then there is quality time. And this is really just when somebody spends uninterrupted time with you. Uninterrupted off of their phone, not on social media and it is one on one time. And this is, I think, a big one for a lot of people. And I think, in particularly, a lot of childhood trauma survivors, especially if there was neglect involved. People really tend to love that one-on-one time. And that’s not to say that your childhood trauma is going to drive what your love languages are. That’s certainly not the case, or at least there’s no research to my knowledge that is supporting of that.

Alyssa Scolari [17:15]:

But I do think that sometimes it can play a factor. So quality time really is creating special moments. Let’s go for a walk. We’re going to have date nights every week or every other week. We are going to go to the gym together. We’re going to ride into work together or Friday nights, our pizza and movie nights. Again, I think that these things are important for every relationship and friendship. I think quality time is, of course, very important for a friendship. But I think the question is that the most important thing to you? This would be probably my second most important love language aside from physical touch. I also really communicate my love with other people with quality time, “Hey, let’s hang out, let’s do something. Let’s go here. Let’s go there.” Now that I’ve recovered a lot from my trauma and I don’t have as much anxiety around seeing people. I really am somebody who enjoys quality time.

Alyssa Scolari [18:32]:

So then there’s acts of service. That is the last one, that’s certainly not the least. And this is just letting somebody know that you want to help them, lightening their load, doing tasks for them. “Hey, I’m going to take your car. I’m going to go get your oil changed.” Or, “Hey, I decided to make dinner tonight because I know you had a really long day.” Or it can be even something so small like, “Oh, Hey, I fed the dogs this morning, because I know you had a meeting.” It doesn’t have to be monumental. It can be very minor. “I made you breakfast. I hung a load of laundry.” Could be very small things. Acts of service is absolutely the way that my husband likes to communicate his love for me. He is a huge acts of service guy.

Alyssa Scolari [19:30]:

He does so much for me, whether it’s cooking, whether it’s cleaning, taking care of the dogs. He will do anything for me and it is really, really awesome. Now I think in terms of how he likes to receive love, I definitely think it’s quality time. I think he really appreciates quality time. So those are the love languages. Now here’s what’s really important about these love languages is, I think for many, many couples and many different kinds of friendships, love languages can be a little bit difficult because we have to learn a lot about the other person and what their needs are. And it’s sort of like, “Well, what do we do when our love languages are completely different?” And I think that when you’re with somebody and your love language is totally different than theirs. For trauma survivors, a lot of times for childhood abuse survivors, it can be really, really triggering because we may not necessarily see that.

Alyssa Scolari [20:50]:

I may not see that my mom’s showing me love by acts of service, buying me clothes, cooking for me. I may not see that as love and I may be upset and feeling unloved because I’m not getting hugs or cuddles from my mom. That is sort of a miscommunication. I’m not seeing that you love me because you are not loving me in a way that I can see, you are loving me in a way that only you can see. So this is why love languages are so important. Yes, they’re fun to talk about, but they’re actually really important for the growth of any kind of relationship, whether it’s romantic or not. And we have childhood trauma, we are already used to not getting our needs met and our brains are already hypervigilant and extra wired for protection.

Alyssa Scolari [21:51]:

So as soon as we see that our needs aren’t getting met, maybe your love language is quality time and your partner is not making any time for you. They will hang a little laundry and they mow the lawn and they cook, but maybe they haven’t planned a date night. Well, here you are triggered feeling abandoned, unloved, maybe worried that something is going wrong in the relationship because your needs aren’t getting met. So you are triggered because you can’t see that they’re expressing love through their way. So I think that it’s really important to not only ask yourself, what are my love languages? But to also ask yourself, what are the love languages of those people around me? And you don’t even have to ask yourself because if I were you, I would go straight to the source. Go right up to your partner, talk to your friends. What are your love languages?

Alyssa Scolari [22:48]:

Because once you start to realize, “Oh, Hey, this person never hugs me. I have my best friend. My best friend never hugs me.” This is not a true story. “But my best friend never hugs me when she sees me. We see each other twice a year and she never hugs me. She only waves. I feel like she doesn’t even want to be my friend.” Meanwhile, she might not be hugging you, but she lives in another country and she spent money on a plane ticket, traveled halfway around the world to spend a week with you, quality time or could that be acts of service? Maybe she doesn’t hug you when she sees you. But when you guys aren’t together, she’s texting me all the time, giving you words of affirmation. It is really important to fully assess all of what is going on sometimes when you’re feeling triggered or we’re feeling unloved.

Alyssa Scolari [23:45]:

Is it that I’m being unloved right now? Or is this person expressing love to me in a different way? And if that’s the case, if somebody is expressing love to you in a way that you don’t necessarily receive, that’s the time to have a conversation about it. Because I think you have to decide like, “Okay, what do we do and how do we compromise so that we both get our needs met? My husband likes quality time. I like physical touch. So we compromise while we spend quality time together, while we are sitting down on the couch, watching a movie together. I’m getting a foot rub or we’re holding hands or he’s rubbing my back or he’s playing with my hair. How can we compromise on this so that both of our needs get met?

Alyssa Scolari [24:42]:

It is a really important conversation to have with your friends, with your partners, with your loved ones. But I think one of the really important things here that I also want to say is to not confuse abuse with, “Oh, our love languages aren’t the same.” Because I see that happens or can happen. Love languages aren’t to be thought about when you’re in a situation where your partner is abusive or controlling or manipulative. That’s not where we want to justify somebody’s behaviors based off of love languages. So be careful not to justify abuse based off of somebody’s love languages. And this is kind of an egregious example, but just to kind of show you what I’m talking about, it wouldn’t be appropriate to say, “Well, when I was a child, we never had any food or hot water in the house, but my mom was always home with us.”

Alyssa Scolari [26:02]:

You don’t want to justify neglect. So that is really important because I do think that some people do that, not maybe necessarily with child abuse and neglect, but I do see it happening a lot with romantic partners. “He’s mean to me and he talks down to me because words of affirmation aren’t his love language. He likes physical touch, or I need to be open to having sex more because his love language is physical touch. Therefore, I can’t say no.” Those are things to really think about. And I highly recommend talking with a therapist about to make sure, yes, can it be the case that one partner may need to work on their being more intimate, perhaps. But we want to make sure that we talk to a therapist about that and make sure that it’s not the case that your partner is pressuring you inappropriately so to have sex.

Alyssa Scolari [27:07]:

So I hope that makes sense. And I think it’s a very, very important takeaway when we talk about the five love languages. So these are really fun. I absolutely love them. And if you don’t know what your love language is, there are a gazillion quizzes online that you could take to find out. You can also send the quizzes to your friends, to your partner to be able to find out. And it’s a fun way to, I think, get to know each other a little bit more. And again, if you have any questions or concerns like, “Was this abuse? Am I confusing love languages? Is this okay?” Please make sure that you talk to a therapist or to a professional about it. I strongly encourage that. So that was that. That was a wrap on episode 100, which was so fun. Thank you again for being here with me for 100 episodes. I love you all. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week.

Alyssa Scolari [28:17]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 100: The Five Love Languages with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

REDUX: Live your best life this summer as Alyssa offers advice to those of us grappling with a fear of wearing shorts, tank tops, and bathing suits this summer. Tune in for some inspiration so that this summer can be one where you embrace the incredible body you have – at any shape and size!

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari: Hey,how’s it going? You know what time it is. We are back out it with another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. You know the deal. I’m your host, Alyssa Scolari and life is pretty good right now. Just wanted to take a moment to kind of check in with all of you. And sometimes I feel like with the interview episodes, sometimes I feel like my personality or my connection to the audience can get lost in translation, just because I think there’s a lot of obviously getting to hear and understand and process the stories and the information from the guest speakers.

[00:01:27] So while I absolutely love having guest speakers, I also really want to maintain an authentic connection with all the listeners out there. So, today I was supposed to have a guest speaker come on and unfortunately there was just some kind of confusion in scheduling. So we had to reschedule and I have some free time and I was like, you know what:

[00:01:53] “I actually have some things I wanted to talk about.” So it’s kind of nice to be able to do a solo episode. I have not done one in a while and that is not because I haven’t wanted to, but life has been a little bit, how would you say this: wild, insane all over the place, aah I shouldn’t say insane. One of the things I’ve really been trying to work on is trying to avoid the use of certain words.

[00:02:25] When we talk about the concept of linguistic evolution, right?.We don’t use certain words anymore. I think one of the words that I’m really trying hard to stop using is crazy and insane. So my reactions to things, because I’m such an animated person, my gut response is to always be like, “oh my God, that’s crazy.”

[00:02:45] Or, “oh my God, that’s insane.” But you know, it can be offensive calling somebody crazy. You know, the word crazy itself has a very negative connotation and was, I think a lot of people who struggled with mental illness were called crazy and I’ve been called crazy actually. And it’s, it cuts pretty deep.

[00:03:07] So, that’s just my own personal preference. Some people may be listening and may be like, “oh my gosh, that’s way too much of a stretch,” but that’s just something I’ve been trying to work on. So that was a little tidbit, but life has been so wild. We are in the process of house hunting. And if any of you know anything about this market, it is…

[00:03:29] I mean again, I’m not going to say crazy, but it is unlike anything I’ve ever seen before in my life. People are coming in and offering literally a hundred thousand dollars over asking price for homes, because there’s such a high demand for homes. And there simply aren’t enough sellers. And we know we’ve been looking for homes for….

[00:03:50] I want to say coming up on a year now. And it has been a really defeating process. The last couple months in particular, we thought that we had found something and we’re still actually not entirely sure if it’s going to go through, we don’t know. So we may be moving. We may not be moving, but our lives have really been house hunting every spare minute that we get.

[00:04:13] And I live in New Jersey as many of you know, but we are looking to move to a different state. So, we’re looking to move to Pennsylvania. So I would still be able to commute to my office in New Jersey. It’s been so tough and every second has been spent traveling to another state to look at homes and making offers on homes and getting your hopes up and getting deflated essentially when you’re told that somebody else came in and offered a hundred thousand dollars over asking price. And it’s just, I don’t know, it’s very defeating. I have wanted to get out of the town that I live in for quite some time. It doesn’t hold the best memories for me.

[00:04:58] And it’s, I think very triggering to live in the same town where a lot of your trauma occurred and no, that’s not to say I haven’t had some good times in this place. I certainly have, but it’s really hard living in a place where you’ve had traumas because I am reminded every day of my life. So. I really have been itching to get out of this town and get out of this area.

[00:05:28] And sadly, it’s just not working out, which I have a very hard time with being told no. Or with having to wait. I’m not very patient. I kind of want what I want when I want it, which is something I’m working on. So yeah, it’s just been…it’s been rough and we want to have a bigger yard for our dogs and it’s been, it’s been a hard time, you know, things could certainly be worse.

[00:05:58] Thank God. My health is improving. I’m healing. I’m getting better. My autoimmune disease is, it appears, knock on wood, to be in remission. I hate to even say that out loud because I’m terrified that I’m going to get a flare up again. You can, if you’re curious to hear more about the auto-immune issues that I’ve been having, you can tune into episode 41.

[00:06:21] I believe it is where I talk a little bit more about the autoimmune disease I was diagnosed with. So with all of that said, it’s just. It’s been a little hectic. So I have not, I feel given my own, I haven’t really put the personal touch on a lot of what I do because I really just haven’t had the space to do that.

[00:06:46] So I appreciate all of your understanding and that I am really working on getting back to adding a little bit more of a personal touch. I was really excited about all the feedback I got for the mini-sode series, the Survive and Thrive stories. It’s been so fun and such an honor to be able to read everybody’s story.

[00:07:08] So please, please, please. If you feel called to do so. Please send in your story to lightaftertrauma@gmail.com. I really, I am just so honored. And so, so many are so funny, those emails that you send and I love it cause I’m a big fan of humor therapy. So I love being able to kind of take what you’ve been through and take things that are really, really dark and very serious and find kinda some light or some humor in them. Again, that doesn’t take away from the seriousness of what happened, but some of y’all just have a really good sense of humor. So I appreciate, hearing your your stories. So with that said, I wanted to come on to talk about an experience that I had today, which felt so liberating. And I think now’s a really good time to share this experience. I went to the beach today and that might not seem like a big deal for people who don’t struggle with body competence. But for me, that was huge. And I went by myself. First of all, because of the pandemic, I really haven’t been to the beach in over a year.

[00:08:25] So I have not had to like do the whole bathing suit situation in quite some time. And second of all, I was alone, which is always extra hard for me because it’s one of those things where, when you’re alone, I think you’re more in your head and you feel more like people are looking at you.

[00:08:48] So today is, it’s a Wednesday. I don’t see clients on Wednesdays. It’s my day off. And I decided, you know, the weather is beautiful. I’m heading to the beach today. And I packed my stuff up. And I went to the beach all by myself and I struggled. I went with shorts and like kind of an oversized t-shirt and I struggled with whether or not I was going to take my bathing suit off…take my bathing suit off!?!?

[00:09:17] Yeah, no, I was not going to do that. Hoping to not end up in jail for public indecency. What I was trying to say is I was debating whether or not I was going to take off my shirt and my shorts and just kind of be in my bikini and it was really a battle. Of course, I had to like look around at the people next to me and kind of size them up and be like, well, are they looking at me?

[00:09:45] You know, what are they going to think? But then I just did it, right. I tried to get out of my head and into my body and I was like, what would feel good right now? And what would feel good is to be able to lay down on this huge beach blanket that I have that I think my aunt got me when I was in the fourth grade is still have it because it’s amazing

[00:10:06] All I want us to do is just chill out on my beach blanket and have that like warm sensation of the sun on your skin, glorious. Well, obviously I can’t do that when I’m covered from head to toe and, you know, clothing and not a bathing suit. So I was like, all right. Screw it taking off my clothes. So I did it.

[00:10:28] I was in a bikini and. Just as an aside, it was a bikini that I enjoyed. Right. It wasn’t a bikini that I bought because I was like, oh, well this is going to cover up the most. So let me just buy this one. This one was so fun. It was like a light blue, like a sky blue with like gold throughout. And it was strapless, which like….

[00:10:57] why am I talking about the details? So I’m talking about the details because I love the bikini and I’m allowed to love the bikini. And I don’t think it hit me that I was allowed to love a bathing suit that I was in until today. When I was just laying on that blanket with my toes in the sand and the sun on my body.

[00:11:17] And I was like, wow, I really liked this bikini. It’s really comfortable. It’s really cute. And I’m allowed to like it and you know what you’re allowed to like your bathing suit too. So it was, I think really a transcendental moment for me, where I shifted from I’m just gonna wear whatever hides the most of my body to I’m going to wear whatever feels fucking fabulous.

[00:11:47] And so I did it now. I struggled a little bit when it came time to like sit up. Right. And I know that there are people out there who can relate to this. So when it came time to sit up, I’m like, oh God, who’s going to be looking at the rolls on my stomach. Now, I’m like looking around to see who’s looking.

[00:12:08] And in fact there was a guy who was, I don’t know. He honestly, he was probably like 50 feet away from me. And I noticed that he got up and actually moved his chair further away at one point. And do you know what my eating disorder brain did? Right. Get a load of this shit. My eating disorder brain was like, oh, he probably got up and moved because he couldn’t stand the sight of your body.

[00:12:34] That is what my brain did. And it’s horrible. And it’s so body dysmorphic and it’s so like eating disordered, but I was able to recognize it and I was able to talk back to it. And I told myself two things. I’m like one…well, I told myself a couple of things. One that’s your fucking eating disorder, right.

[00:12:57] Two, look at the tide, the tide had significantly risen, so there was much less beach and he probably didn’t want his ass sitting in the water because his chair was very low to the ground. So he probably picked up his chair and moved it back so the water didn’t hit him. It’s still the middle of May. The water in New Jersey is still freezing.

[00:13:20] That makes the most sense. What really doesn’t make sense is the fact that he would take one look at me from 50 yards away and be so repulsed that he had to get up and move his chair. Like what come on, what is my eating disorder doing? Right. So, you know, at that moment I kind of just laughed at myself and I was like, honestly, Ed, I call my eating disorder, Ed.

[00:13:42] It’s a little tip that I got from a book that I read called Life Without Ed, by Jenny Schaefer, highly recommended by the way. So I call my eating disorder, Ed, and I was just like, you know what Ed, like, fuck you. Fuck you. Because you’re not ruining my perfect day at the beach. And I sat up and that is a very hard thing for me to do.

[00:14:05] I used to struggle and take like five minutes to sit up because I would have to have the towel wrapped around my stomach so that nobody could see my rolls because I was so embarrassed. Well, guess what? Today I just fucking sat up and it was so liberating. I sat there and I looked into the ocean and I could feel my stomach rolls, right.

[00:14:32] Because who doesn’t have a stomach roll when they’re bending over or sitting like, that’s what our bodies do. Right. Our skin rolls, the fat that we have in our stomach, like rolls, stomach rolls, aren’t bad. And I just breathe and I was very, very in tune with my body. I was very in tune with my surroundings and I just didn’t care if anybody was looking at me, you know, I ended up having a couple that came and sat actually somewhat close to me closer than what I’m comfortable with for sure.

[00:15:11] And honestly, closer than what was necessary, because there was so much space on the beach. I don’t know why they needed it to be that close to me, but whatever. I was uncomfortable and I was really just, I, at one point I just stopped caring and I became so much more infatuated with my body and sitting down and processing all of the turmoil.

[00:15:36] My body has helped me to survive over the last year of the pandemic and then a whole bunch of things that happened in the middle of that pandemic that were pretty traumatizing. And I was filled with such gratitude, such gratitude for my body. Such gratitude for the tree trunk thighs that I’ve had my whole life that I have hated my whole life.

[00:16:06] I found myself sitting in gratitude for these legs, for my stomach, my belly, for all the scars on my body, the stretch marks that are so natural that almost any body has quite frankly. I was just in gratitude and I felt so at peace with this body, I kind of just sat criss cross applesauce on the beach blanket, which I’ve never done before at a beach.

[00:16:39] I truly, I’ve never done that before. And it hit me that I have lost so many valuable beach years because I spent time hating my body. There was a time where I would claim that I hated the beach because I simply didn’t want to go because I didn’t want to be seen. So I would be like, oh, I don’t like the sand or I don’t like the salty ocean water.

[00:17:07] It makes me feel gross. That’s such a load of crap. I love the sand, what a wonderful exfoliant. And I love the saltwater. It feels so healing to me. And I used to say for years that I hated the beach because I was terrified of being seen. And I just wasn’t today. I was alone with myself, with my body, with nothing to distract me, and I felt completely at ease and there are people who come in my office and they ask me, or there are people who I connect with on social media.

[00:17:48] And they ask me questions like, well, Alyssa, why am I doing this work? Why bother trying to recover from an eating disorder? Why bother trying to recover from trauma and it’s so that you can have days like I had today where everything just feels okay inside of you, because at the end of the day, that’s all that really matters, is that you feel good inside. And when you feel good inside, you care less about what other people are thinking. What other people are saying. It was the first time that I didn’t spend my entire trip at the beach just looking at the people around me, wondering what they would think. If I dared to get up and walk over to the water and put my toes in the water, I just did it. I just got up and did it because it was what I wanted to do. And it’s so beautiful. And, you know, I know that this will resonate with a lot of you.

[00:18:58] And I want you to know that you can get to that spot too. It’s a beautiful spot to be in. And I’m not saying that I will never struggle again. I think I absolutely will struggle again. I think that’s just part of life, but all the hard work that I’ve done in trauma and in my eating disorder recovery has helped me get to this moment of truly loving the flesh that I was given, the meat on my body, the weird feet that I have, the you know, crooked smile that I have that some people probably have never noticed. And I notice all the time, I love all of it. And I might not tomorrow, I might wake up full of self-loathing, but today. It was a really, really healing moment for me.

[00:19:53] And I want you to know that wherever you’re at right now with your body and with yourself, you deserve to wear a bathing suit that you fucking love, and you deserve to go to the beach and to sit and to not have to look around and make sure that people aren’t looking at your rolls, you deserve to be able to get to the beach and to take your shorts off.

[00:20:18] And to not have to hide your thighs, be so thankful for this body that has gotten you through, if nothing else than just the last year alone of immense loss and sickness and fear and all the other horrible things that the pandemic has brought. Your body has kept you alive throughout it all. And if nothing else go to the beach and celebrate that and rock whatever body you have, because it is glorious, you are glorious and you deserve happiness.

[00:21:00] And that’s all I have to say about that really. I mean, I know that’s a long winded speech. It’s a long winded spiel, but I hope that it can help inspire at least one of you in knowing that this summer you literally do not have to suffer or hide yourself. You deserve to be seen on the inside and the outside.

[00:21:24] So if this resonates with you, whether you are he or she or they, or anywhere in between, this is your sign that every single body is a beach body. And go where whatever bathing suit you want, have a wonderful summer. Everybody I’m still going to be here. I’m not going anywhere. Still going to be rolling out podcast episodes, but I love you all.

[00:21:53] From the bottom of my heart. I am so incredibly thankful for your support, for your loyalty, for listening, for being on this journey with me, the highs and the lows of recovery I am with you, you are with me. I feel it every day. And I just feel like I have thousands of new friends and. I’m really grateful.

[00:22:17] So thank you all. I love you all. If you haven’t done so yet, please feel free to subscribe and leave a review and rating. Most important of those is a rating and subscription to the podcast. And yeah, that’s all I got. Have a wonderful week. Go enjoy some sunshine and let’s get a pop in the summer and our beach bodies. Love you all. Take care.

[00:22:47] Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to light after trauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram. We are at light after trauma and on Twitter. It is at light after pod. And if you’re on Facebook, please be sure to join our Facebook group.

[00:23:07] It is a private community where trauma survivors are able to connect and chat with one another. That Facebook group is called light after traumas. So just look us up on Facebook and be sure to join. Lastly, please head over to patrion.com/light. After trauma to support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

[00:23:32] So please head on over again. That’s patrion.com/late after trauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media.

On Instagram. We are at @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter. It is @lightafterpod. And if you’re on Facebook, please be sure to join our Facebook group. It is a private community where trauma survivors are able to connect and chat with one another. That Facebook group is called light after traumas. So just look us up on Facebook and be sure to join.

Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again. That’s patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 99 Redux: Your Body Has Always Been A Beach Body with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

The post Episode 98: Why We Need Pride Month (and a personal note on coming out) with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

The post Episode 97: Setting and Upholding Your Boundaries with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Light After Trauma podcast. Although we do not have an episode for you today. I am so sorry. I know we were supposed to continue the conversation about boundaries and I had some great things to share with you, but David and I partied a little too hard this weekend and by partied, I mean, we had a wedding. One of our closest friends got married and it was the best time ever, but we both got COVID. So we have been sick and I have not been up for recording a full length episode. We are recovering, we made it all this time without getting COVID and now we have it. Luckily so far, our symptoms are pretty mild, so it’s nothing too bad, but we are just resting and recovering. So there will be no episode today, but I will be back next week, hopefully better than ever excited to talk to you some more about boundaries. So take good care. I hope you have a wonderful week and I am holding you in the light.

The post Covid Had Other Plans appeared first on Light After Trauma.

• Different ways people might react to setting boundaries
• Why we are often afraid to set boundaries
• How we can push past our fears around setting boundaries 

Nedra Tawwab’s Instagram: @nedratawwab

Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace — Nedra Tawwab

Check out the Light After Trauma website for transcripts, other episodes, Alyssa’s guest appearances, and more at: www.lightaftertrauma.com

Want to get more great content and interact with the show? Check us out on Instagram: @lightaftertrauma

We need your help! We want to continue to make great content that can help countless trauma warriors on their journey to recovery. So, please help us in supporting the podcast by becoming a recurring patron of the show via Patreon:

https://www.patreon.com/lightaftertrauma

Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:00]:

Hey everybody, what’s up? Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I’m your host Alyssa Scolari, talking about boundaries today. This is the part two of a series that we are doing on boundaries. In the first episode, which if you haven’t listened to, I highly recommend you go back and check that out. In that first episode, we talked about what are boundaries and why do we need them, why are they so important. We also talked about the different types of boundaries: porous, rigid, and healthy. And we also talked about some of the biggest areas in which people tend to struggle with boundaries the most.

Alyssa Scolari [01:08]:

As I mentioned in last week’s episode, so much of this information is taken from a book that I highly recommend. It is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab, and you can also listen to it on Audible if you’re not a big reader and you’d rather listen. I listen to the book on Audible. You can go look in the show notes, if you want access to the book, or if you want to follow Nedra on Instagram. She’s absolutely amazing therapist and does awesome work with boundaries. And I said this last week, but it is worth repeating, I personally believe that boundaries are the most important tool that you can have with you, not just for healing from trauma, but throughout your entire life.

Alyssa Scolari [01:58]:

That being said, I also personally believe it’s one of the hardest things to do, and it brings up a lot of feelings for people. I feel like I should probably say that. It’s really, really hard, particularly for survivors of trauma who have been taught that our needs don’t matter. And again, I speak about all of this in the last week’s episode, so feel free to go and check that out if you haven’t already. That being said, if you haven’t listened to it, I don’t think that you necessarily do need to listen to it in order to benefit from this episode. I think you can kind of just dive right in today with the rest of us.

Alyssa Scolari [02:39]:

So just some housekeeping things. I actually know, I started off last week’s episode by talking about how I had gone no contact with my family. I know that I’ve been talking for the last couple of weeks about how I’ve been struggling a lot with depression, and then some things happened and I went no contact with my family and just wanted to follow up and say that I am hanging in there. I’m doing all right. I think that I’m better than I’ve been in a long time. I’m taking space and time to grieve and to give myself grace. But overall, I think I am better than I’ve been in a really long time. So feeling good, feeling energized, excited to be out of that depressive funk. It was awful. So really excited to be out of that, really excited to just have a new kind of zest for life.

Alyssa Scolari [03:44]:

It’s been really hot here where I live, so I’ve been staying hydrated, trying to stay cool, but I’ve also gotten a chance to really enjoy the outdoors. I’ve been posting pictures on my Instagram, so if you have an Instagram and you want to go check it out, my Instagram is Light After Trauma. And our backyard is looking amazing. We have been building it into this little like oasis and we have tons of plants with really bright, happy flowers. And then we made this giant… Well, not giant, but we made this patio space and we have a little waterfall and we got a fire pit and we got furniture. And then we got string lights that hang above the patio. So at night, you sit out there with a fire on and the sounds of the waterfall and the beautiful lights, and it is just dreamy. It is so dreamy.

Alyssa Scolari [04:45]:

I have been having the most fun with David making our backyard the perfect oasis. We have a very small yard. I, by no means, want to come across as acting like we have this giant yard because we really don’t. It’s super tiny, but we have absolutely made the most of the space, and I just couldn’t be more thrilled. So I highly recommend that you go check it out. I mean, if you’re into that sort of thing.

Alyssa Scolari [05:15]:

So that’s been really fun. And then on the EMDR front, because I have not given anyone an EMDR update in a while. So those of you who might remember, a few months ago, I had told you that I was getting ready to start EMDR. And if that is a new word or a new acronym for you, I do an episode with LCSW Melissa Parks on the podcast, that you can go check it out and see what EMDR is. It is a treatment for trauma, and it’s supposed to be a highly effective treatment for trauma, one in which you aren’t necessarily required to talk about your memories bit by bit. And it really, as far as I understand, helps to rewire your brain. I have heard from so many people that EMDR is absolutely life changing and I am starting it for myself. And if I love it and I feel that it’s really effective and really great, I am going to go ahead and then get trained in it for my clients.

Alyssa Scolari [06:19]:

Speaking of which, I am accepting new clients right now. So if you are living in the states of Florida or New Jersey, and soon to be Massachusetts, feel free, you can reach out to me. If you are interested in working together, or if you know anybody who needs therapy, feel free to reach out. I’d love to work with you. I’m excited to finally be accepting new clients, but I digress.

Alyssa Scolari [06:44]:

So back to the EMDR, I had started with a guy a couple of months ago at this point, I want to say like March and he kept… Well, first of all, he didn’t show up for our second appointment. But aside from that, he kept messing up the times of our appointments. He would text me and say, “Hey, what time are we meeting?” Like, several times. Once in a while, of course, whatever, all therapists are human, but this was several times right out of the gate when we started working together. And it was starting to stir up some abandonment stuff in me, because I’m like, why doesn’t this person care enough to write down when we’re meeting? So I ended my treatment with that person and I was really proud of myself because I didn’t just ghost. It’s easier, I think in some ways to ghost, but I actually stated very clearly what my issue was. So I was really proud of myself for doing that. And then I found another therapist that I met with and it just wasn’t a good match at all.

Alyssa Scolari [07:57]:

This therapist had said something that I found offensive, and I tried to give that person the benefit of the doubt. But then as the session went on, this person wasn’t necessarily fully listening to my answers to the questions that I was being asked. They would ask me a question, but then as I would answer it, they would be not even looking at me, on another computer, typing out the answer to the previous question. So then they would get done typing, I’ve already answered their next question, and then they would look at me and be like, “Oh, what’d you say again?” And I was like, “Ooh, ooh, I don’t… I don’t like this.” It just didn’t feel good. It’s a personal preference. I don’t like when somebody’s looking at a computer screen the whole time when I’m sharing intimate details of my trauma. I don’t like it. It makes me feel unsafe.

Alyssa Scolari [08:58]:

So I found somebody new and I met with this new person on last week, I don’t know, one day, but I absolutely loved her. There were no red flags for me. I felt comfortable and I’m really looking forward to working with this person. So I am really hoping that it works out. And honestly, this just goes to show you that you are allowed to be super picky when it comes to a therapist. I know I’ve done episodes like this in the past, but I just want to reiterate, you can and should be picky with your therapist. Do not settle. If there’s something in you, that’s like, “Hey, this isn’t quite right.” You have to go with that feeling. And because I went with those feelings in my gut, I have now found somebody who I think is going to be a really, really good fit for me.

Alyssa Scolari [09:53]:

So I’m really excited about that. So I will keep you all posted. I haven’t officially gotten into the EMDR stuff yet, but I will let you know how that process goes. It’s supposed to be really difficult and really tiring. It gets a lot worse before it gets better, but I’m really looking forward to it nonetheless. So I will keep you all posted.

Alyssa Scolari [10:16]:

Okay. So getting right back into it today, we are talking more about boundaries and just some more information why people don’t set boundaries, what the fear is around setting boundaries, and how to appropriately deal with that fear. As I talked about in the last week’s episode, there are so many reasons why we need boundaries. And people experiencing burnout and stress and conflict in their relationships, they are just a few of the many, many reasons. One thing that I did not mention last week is we talk about burnout and how burnout is a direct… Well, not always direct, but it is more often than not, a sign of having poor boundaries. And one of the places where people tend to experience burnout and difficulty with boundaries in general is in the work field, the workforce, particularly when we talk about doctors.

Alyssa Scolari [11:24]:

So according to Nedra Tawwab in her book Set Boundaries, Find Peace, burnout from doctors and surgeons costs this country $4.6 billion a year, $4.6 billion. How does that happen? You might be asking, how does burnout cost money? Well, it cost money because as a result of burnout, doctors are making medical mistakes and misdiagnoses that will then go on to cost, whether in the form of having to redo tests or rewrite prescriptions, or even in the form of lawsuits. It will cost $4.6 billion. So there is no question here like, are boundaries important? Can we live without them? We can’t. We ultimately can’t live a healthy life without them, quite literally. It can cost some people their lives. It can cost some people their careers. It can cost people their relationships.

Alyssa Scolari [12:36]:

Boundaries are really uncomfortable to set. They are really, really scary. But as Brené Brown has once said, and this is also taken directly from Nedra’s book, “Sometimes we need to choose that temporary discomfort over eventual long term resentment.” So yes, boundaries will create this temporary discomfort, but it’s preferred over this long term resentment where you start to resent your job, or you start to resent your partner, or you start to resent your friend or whatever it may be. The short term discomfort is much more desired, quite honestly, and experiencing that temporary discomfort is only one of the many reasons in which for why people are afraid to set boundaries. There are other reasons that people are afraid of setting boundaries. And one of those reasons is like, I have a fear of being rejected. This one is definitely true for me. I think that I am afraid of every reason for not setting boundaries that you could possibly have. Like, I have all of them. Fear of rejection or possible abandonment. Is this person going to leave me? Is this person going to reject me? Are they going to walk away from me?

Alyssa Scolari [14:03]:

Another reason is assuming it’s not going to work, “Ah, it’s not going to work. You don’t know this person.” I often get this response. When I talk about setting boundaries with people, I often will get this like, “Ah, you don’t know this person.” Like, they’ve been stuck in their ways for years and there’s no use in asking them to change now. It’s not going to be effective. I personally think that that’s a cop out. I really do. Because you can’t predict how somebody’s going to react, and you can say that they’re not going to change, but ultimately you don’t know unless you start reinforcing that boundary.

Alyssa Scolari [14:51]:

So I sort of think that this one is a little bit of a cop out. Like I can see that this is a genuine reason why, and I too have said to… You know, I have found myself saying to my therapist like, “Oh, you know, this person’s never going to change. There’s no point in trying to set a boundary.” And honestly, when I look back at it, I’m like, that was such a cop out. I just was afraid. I was just afraid.

Alyssa Scolari [15:14]:

So that is another reason. An additional reason is you get your value from helping others. This is going to ring true for my people pleasers out there. If you get your value from helping others, we need to look at that. We need to reevaluate. I find this to be true with so many folks, especially those who didn’t get their needs met in childhood. We have been taught that it is our job to serve others, to be there for others. And eventually, we learn that our worth lies in what we can do for other people. If you get your value from helping other people, it’s definitely something to look at. That’s not to say that you shouldn’t enjoy helping others. You can, but when you get to a point where you feel like you’re not good enough, as long as you are not helping somebody, then we’ve got to talk about that because you are worthy just as you are. You’re worth does not depend on what you do.

Alyssa Scolari [16:23]:

Another reason people don’t set boundaries is because they feel mean doing it. They feel like people are mean, or they feel like what they’re doing is going to be mean. It could be that they feel like other people are mean, but that kind of falls under the same category as rejection. This is more like, you know, I feel like I’m being mean by saying, “Hey, I can’t pick up the phone right now. I know it’s 10:00 o’clock. I know you’re having a panic attack. I’m sorry, I can’t pick up the phone.” That is so hard to do, and I completely understand why it feels mean. I too have been there. Being a therapist, people will reach out to me for advice all of the time. Well, a little less so now, because my boundaries are so much better.

Alyssa Scolari [17:12]:

But I remember one time, I had a friend who was in a very abusive relationship, and this person would call me all the time or text me all the time and ask me for advice, for support, or help. Would even ask me to talk to their partner. Like, “Hey, please talk to this person, please. You know, you’re a therapist, please try to knock some sense into this person.” And you know what? Back then, years ago, I felt like I had to. When this person would text me at 10:00 o’clock at night, telling me that they had to leave the house because their partner was throwing an abusive fit, I felt like I had to pick up the phone and talk. When this person would say, “Hey, can you please talk to my partner? My partner really needs help, they’re being abusive.” I felt like I had to. I would pick up the phone, I would talk to my friend, I would talk to their partner. I would quite literally be doing like couples therapy things, which I should have never done.

Alyssa Scolari [18:18]:

Again, I wasn’t really doing therapy, but it was just like, I was giving advice. I was filling a role that they should have had a therapist fill. And I started to feel a lot of resentment. I started to feel like I was only useful to this person so long as I was giving them some kind of advice on what they can do with their partner. And guess what? That person never took any of my advice, never, ever took any of my advice. Over time, I started to feel a ton of resentment, but I could not set that boundary because I felt mean. I felt mean. Eventually, the level of resentment that I had outweighed any fear I had of being mean and I finally set that boundary and was like, “Hey, I can’t do this. You know, I’ve been doing my best, but like, I can’t. I’m burnt out, I’m spent.” And you know what? I felt really mean doing it and guess what? That person, we don’t actually talk anymore. But the reason we don’t talk isn’t because I was mean. Setting limits for yourself is not a mean thing.

Alyssa Scolari [19:33]:

As I said in last week’s episode, you have to set those limits because people thrive off of you not setting boundaries. People love that because then you give and give and give, but nobody can look out for you more than you have to look out for you. Saying no is not mean. And oftentimes, we can kind of trace this back to our childhoods, where we are taught that other people’s needs matter more than ours. I know that’s certainly the case for me. Therefore, I felt like I couldn’t tell anybody no, and I know that’s the case for many trauma survivors.

Alyssa Scolari [20:15]:

That being said, this is much easier said than done, but it is not mean to set boundaries. It’s important to remember, and this is also a brilliant little nugget of wisdom from Nedra’s book. People are only going to treat you as well as you treat yourself. So if you’re not having good boundaries, if you’re not taking care of yourself, other people are not going to treat you that well either. In the case of this friend that I was talking about, I wasn’t treating myself well. I was picking up the phone in the middle of the night. I was talking to this person for hours on end, knowing that this person never once sort of like returned in the favor and never once said, “Oh, hey, you know, tell me about you.” I wasn’t taking good care of myself. And because I wasn’t, because I didn’t say how I felt or call things out right from the get-go, I kind of opened the door to let this person take full advantage of me essentially.

Alyssa Scolari [21:23]:

And then one of the other ways that I think that causes people, or one of the other things that I think causes people to not set boundaries, and I can’t quite remember if this got talked about in the book, I’m sure it did, but this is something that I’ve noticed a lot just simply within myself or within my practice or just my day to day life is that a lot of people assume that other people should already know something. A lot of people say like, “Oh, well, it’s common sense.” Like common sense would tell you, especially a lot of maybe business owners or really anybody. Let’s say you’re out to dinner on a Friday night with your friends and your friend keeps getting this call from her boss, “Oh, my boss keeps calling me. My boss keeps calling me.” And the friend gets frustrated and she’s like, “Well, common sense would tell my boss not to call me on a Friday night when I’m off the clock.” A lot of people often do this with children too. “Common sense should tell my teenager not to ride their bike on a busy highway.”

Alyssa Scolari [22:35]:

But the thing we have to remember is that common sense isn’t common. Common sense is very much dependent on how you grew up, the messages that you were raised with. There really is no such thing as common sense. Common sense isn’t common to people. And we can’t assume that other people can read our minds, and I think that’s where a lot of us get tripped up, including myself. I see this especially happening with partners and relationships. I will do this to David. I’ll be like, well, common sense should tell him when I’m upset if I had a really long day at work.

Alyssa Scolari [23:13]:

The other day I came home and I was really hurting over all this stuff with my family, and I came home pretty late and he is home and he gets ready to go outside and start doing a project in the backyard. And in my head, I’m getting so mad at him and I’m feeling abandoned because I’m like, “Dude, common sense would tell you, like I worked literally all day. I’m so upset. You know I’m so upset. Like, common sense would tell you that I actually really need you to sit with me tonight and just like be with me.” But again, common sense isn’t common. It means nothing because when my husband is upset, what he likes to do is get lost in a project. So common sense for him is to start doing a project, start trying to work through some of these emotions by building something or working on something outside or taking care of the garden. That’s common sense for him.

Alyssa Scolari [24:22]:

So it’s different. We cannot assume that other people can read our minds. It was unfair of me to assume that he can read my mind. I never once said, “I really need you.” I wanted him to just know, but that was the part of me that was wanting a parent. That was that childish yearning in me. Like, I just need a parent to simply know what my needs are. So something that’s very important to keep in mind.

Alyssa Scolari [24:54]:

Now, in terms of how people might react to boundaries. There’s really no way of knowing for sure, but there are a couple different ways according to Nedra Tawwab’s book, Set, Boundaries, Find Peace, that we can categorize people’s reactions to boundaries. Now, people might get defensive. I think if you’ve been in this relationship for a long time, it’s very likely that somebody might get defensive and be like, “Well, where is this coming from?” Or they try to justify their behavior and they try to convince you that their behavior’s okay. So that could be one way people might react to you setting boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [25:36]:

People might question your boundaries. People might have a lot of questions, well, again, “Why is this coming up right now? Like, why? I’ve been doing this for years with you? This is the relationship we’ve had for years. Like, why do we have to change it now?” People will also test the limits. You bet they will. It’s in our human nature. Our human nature is to rebel, is to test the limits. Nobody likes to be told no. I get it. I hate being told no. Part of the reason why setting boundaries is so hard for me is because I know I don’t like to be told no. It’s really difficult for me. So people are going to test the limits. It is something that absolutely is to be expected.

Alyssa Scolari [26:28]:

People also might engage in passive-aggressive behaviors, like ghosting. Ghosting is when people just stop responding to you. So you set a boundary and then you don’t hear from this person at all. They don’t talk to you. I have this happen frequently within my workspace. That actually happened twice over the last week. It doesn’t happen often. It always isn’t often that I have to kind of set firm boundaries. I do, of course, but these boundaries that I had to set were really, really difficult and really firm. And as a result, I was ghosted and it’s okay, it happens. It’s part of how people respond and react in treatment and in the world. Therapy is literally like a little microcosm of how people behave in the world. I set a boundary, I was ghosted. That’s one passive-aggressive behavior that people do in response to boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [27:45]:

Another passive-aggressive behavior is the silent treatment. So very short responses, especially if you live with this person or even maybe through text. This person once used emojis to talk to you and exclamation points, but now all of a sudden, they’re responding with like, “Yes, no, okay, good night.” I see this happen so often, especially in my teens who are in relationships with other people or with our best friends. They get mad at their best friend and instead of saying how they feel, they’ll be like, “K.” Send. That’s the text. And it is well known in the teen world that when you write K. and you send that text, that means that you are really pissed off, but that is a passive-aggressive behavior. That is considered the silent treatment. You know, this person doesn’t answer for days, whatever it might be, it’s passive-aggressive.

Alyssa Scolari [28:50]:

And then another thing that I see that often can be very passive-aggressive is people sort of throwing your boundary in your face a little bit. So people will say things like, “Oh, well, I was going to ask you to come out with us.” Okay, let’s say, for example, you don’t want to drink and you have a friend who is always pressuring you to drink. Whenever you go out, they’re like, “Hey, come on, have a drink, have a drink.” And you’re like, “No, no, no, no, no. I really don’t want to.” And it makes you uncomfortable. So let’s say after a few months of this, or a few weeks of this even, you go and you set a boundary with this person and you’re like, you know, “Hey, I really don’t appreciate it when you keep pressuring me to drink when we are out in public. You know I don’t like to drink. Please do not pressure me anymore. If you continue to pressure me, I’m just going to leave, so I am not sitting there feeling uncomfortable.” And this friend’s like, “Okay, all right, sure. I get it.”

Alyssa Scolari [30:03]:

And then the next week later, let’s say, it’s the weekend, you log onto Instagram and you see that this friend is out with a bunch of other people, a bunch of your mutual friends, and you did not get invited. So you go to this friend and you say, you know, “Hey, why didn’t you invite me?” And this friend goes, “Oh, well, you don’t like to drink and you didn’t want to feel pressured so I just figured I wouldn’t put you in that situation.” That is so passive-aggressive. When people use your boundary against you, it is so passive-aggressive. This is something that was done to me all the time, all the time when I was younger and even in my earlier adulthood. To this day, even talking about it, it just drives me nuts.

Alyssa Scolari [30:58]:

The other thing is like all of these responses and reactions that people have, they’re really difficult. It kind of seems like, “Okay, well, why am I setting this boundary in the first place?” If people can react in all types of bad ways, you have to remember that you setting a boundary is for your peace. It’s about peace for you. It’s about health for you. You can’t control how other people react. In fact, if somebody reacts in a negative way, that is likely a sign that you needed to set that boundary in the first place. And it’s so important to remember that other people’s reactions are not about you. The way that other people respond to boundaries has nothing to do with you. The fact of the matter is that boundaries can solve a lot of relationship problems, but they can only be solved if both people are open to listening and meeting the other’s requests.

Alyssa Scolari [32:11]:

Now, I do also want to say this, relationships where boundaries are extremely difficult is where there is abuse happening or abuse that happened. It is so difficult to set boundaries where abuse took place, because it’s the ultimate violation. It is the ultimate violation. So it sort of feels like a little bit strange for somebody to kind of violate you, especially if it’s like physical abuse, sexual abuse, continued emotional abuse. This person has violated you in some of the worst ways. It’s very hard to build boundaries after that. I’m not saying that it can’t be done. It absolutely can be. I’ve seen it be done. I’ve seen loads of people where there’s been some sort of tragedy or trauma or abuse, and then people have rebuilt that relationship and have had really good boundaries, but it’s extremely difficult.

Alyssa Scolari [33:17]:

And I wouldn’t recommend trying it without the help of a therapist. I really wouldn’t because we just don’t know. We just don’t know what’s going to happen. You don’t know what’s going to come up for you. So I really don’t recommend trying it without the help of a licensed professional who can support you in this process and who can help you to see if boundaries are even possible. Because the thought of setting boundaries with somebody who was abusive, it can bring up so much. And depending on how that person reacts, it could potentially open the door for further traumatization. Again, I’m not saying always, but I do think it’s something that we must keep in mind when it comes to boundary setting, is that it’s sort of a whole different ball game when you’re dealing with somebody who has been, or is abusive.

Alyssa Scolari [34:11]:

All in all, this is what we are working with right now. We know what boundaries are, we understand why they’re important. Now, we understand why people are so afraid to set them. We understand how people might react. The worst case scenario is that this relationship is over. That is the worst case scenario. I am not going to sit here and say that, that never happens because it does. And it has happened to me multiple times where I’ve tried to set a boundary and the relationship has been over as the result. It does happen. It doesn’t happen all the time. I think that you would be surprised at how well people are able to respect your boundaries when you start setting them. People will respect you more because they see that you respect yourself more. People see that they have no choice, but to respect you. And that is going to help you live the most beautiful, most peaceful life.

Alyssa Scolari [35:22]:

If somebody leaves because you have set a boundary, it’s heartbreaking, it’s devastating, but that too is temporary. And it is better than the long term resentment and anger that you will deal with by not setting the boundaries and by feeling like other people are walking all over you. Again, this is truly one of the hardest things I believe, but it truly is the key for living a good life. And that is what we want, baby. That is what we want.

Alyssa Scolari [36:05]:

So that is a wrap for today. We are still going to keep talking about this because we’ve got a lot more to talk about. Again, the majority of this information is taken from Nedra Tawwab’s Set Boundaries, Find Peace. So it’s a really good read. If you want to read it, you can go check out the show notes. Everything that you need is in the show notes for today. I hope that you all have a wonderful week. I will see you next week. And until then, I will be holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [36:35]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma. And on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over, again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

The post Episode 96: Pushing Past Our Fears About Setting Boundaries with Alyssa Scolari, LPC appeared first on Light After Trauma.

Nedra Tawwab’s Instagram: @nedratawwab Order Set Boundaries, Find Peace by Nedra Tawwab

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Glad to be back here today. We are talking about boundaries which is in my opinion, one of the most important tools too, and not just healing, but also one of the most important tools that you can use in your everyday life as you go throughout your entire life. You need boundaries all of the time.

Alyssa Scolari [00:50]:

So before we get into that, just a few housekeeping things. If I have not gotten back to you yet, I know a few of you have reached out to me on Patreon. If I haven’t gotten back to you yet, please forgive me. It’s been a little bit hectic. I know that in the last episode, I talked about how I have really been struggling with depression. And at the time that I recorded that episode, I was saying like, “I just don’t know why I feel this way, and I have done absolutely everything I can do to try to make myself feel better. I’ve tried to take care of myself to the best of my ability, and yet still, here I am so depressed.”

Alyssa Scolari [01:31]:

Now in the time between when I recorded that episode, and when I am recording this episode, I have a lot more insight into why I was feeling the way that I was feeling. I thought that I understood maybe a part of why I was feeling really depressed with the anniversary of my mom getting really sick, but now that I’ve … Well, I should say now that certain events in my life have unfolded, I can confidently say that I know more about why I was feeling so depressed, and I think that emphasizes the importance of hanging in there and riding the wave even if you don’t understand what’s happening because sometimes we don’t understand what’s happening, but it’s important to hang in there anyway because I am on the mend.

Alyssa Scolari [02:24]:

Well, somewhat. I will continue to get better, and I now understand that I was gearing up for a goodbye. And I’m just going to briefly touch on what has happened. I will more than likely do an episode where I go into a little bit more depth about it, but I don’t know for sure yet, I’m still trying to process what happened. And I’m still trying to grieve and figure out for myself what life is going to look like now because this truly was the hardest decision that I have ever made in my life.

Alyssa Scolari [03:09]:

I have made the decision to go no contact with my family and briefly, I had a falling out with my brother shortly after I recorded last week’s episode. And due to the falling out with my brother, I terminated that relationship because I realized that it was not healthy for me at all, and hasn’t been healthy for me for probably 30 years. And so I terminated that relationship. And as a result of terminating that relationship, my mother and I had a falling out about that. And it was really at that point that I knew for me that these relationships aren’t going to work in my life no matter how much I wish that they would.

Alyssa Scolari [04:12]:

So I realize that it’s time, it’s time to walk away, it’s time to say goodbye. It’s time to step back from all of this, and as much as it hurt me, I don’t question whether or not I did the right thing. I know that I have done the right thing. I don’t question that because it was so harmful for me to continue in relationships where I can’t be my authentic self, and so I had to walk away and it’s ironic I think that this episode, we are talking about boundaries because this was a result.

Alyssa Scolari [04:57]:

This incident was a result of me trying to set boundary after boundary that just wasn’t working and when it comes to family conflict or any kind of conflict, going no contact like right now, I think we are really in cut you off culture. “Well, you’re not doing things my way, so I’m just going to cut you off.” And a lot of people do that and that’s passive aggressive when we’re not actually explicitly stating the problem, that can be pretty passive aggressive, but cut off or cutting somebody off, not this cutoff culture that we live in where we’re so quick to just be like, “I’m done with you.”

Alyssa Scolari [05:41]:

Making the decision to go no contact with somebody or cut somebody off is typically or should be if exercised in the appropriate way, it should be a decision that comes after years and years or not even years, but after multiple failed attempts at trying to repair the relationships or trying to establish boundaries in the relationships, right? That’s when we start talking about, “Do I even want to be in this relationship, friendship, et cetera, if things aren’t improving?” So when I say that I went no contact, I by no means want to give the impression that this was an impulsive decision or something that I have done without ever really trying to fix the problem.

Alyssa Scolari [06:30]:

This is something that for me personally has been 30 years in the making. And again, I don’t question whether I did the right thing or the wrong thing. I know it was the right thing for me, but there is a heavy amount of grief there just because it was the right decision doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been really difficult for me. There’s a lot of grief, there’s a lot of pain, there’s a lot of anger and it feels like I’ve been preparing for it this whole last month with how depressed I was feeling.

Alyssa Scolari [07:13]:

I started reading Harry Potter again and mind you, I don’t like J.K. Rowling, and I do not buy things now that support her. I have the books Harry Potter is, and always will be one of the most important parts of my childhood and my adulthood apparently. So I don’t like Joanne Rowling. She is a trans exclusionary, radical feminist. She is extremely transphobic. She is very, very harmful to the transgender community, so don’t support her at all as an aside, but I have been reading Harry Potter and Harry Potter is something that got me through so much when I was younger. So, so much.

Alyssa Scolari [08:03]:

This boy that has been hurt time after time after time and had nobody there or seemingly nobody there, but persisted anyway. And I started picking up those books again recently, and I’ve been really, really into them and just really drawn into to that world. And I think because emotionally speaking, there are so many parallels with Harry Potter’s worlds and mine, and so in a way it feels like I knew this was coming.

Alyssa Scolari [08:38]:

I think my body was just preparing and then it happened, and I feel a lot of things, grief and relief. The whole gamut of emotions is what I feel. So I have been really just taking time to heal and recover and learn how to move through my life, and I guess just heal. That’s the bottom line, I’m figuring out how to heal. So if I’m less responsive on Patreon, bear with me. If I’m less responsive on Instagram, also bear with me.

Alyssa Scolari [09:19]:

I am just taking my time to move through all of the feelings as they come, and we will see where I’m at next week. I will, of course update you on how I’m feeling and things of that nature, but that is what happened. I had to go no contact with my family and it sucked. It sucked, bottom line. So enough about that. Let’s get into what we’re talking about today, and what we’re talking about today is boundaries as I mentioned.

Alyssa Scolari [09:50]:

So boundaries is, or boundaries are the one thing that I think so many people hate when it comes to therapy and healing and recovery because they are the hardest things to set. I believe, especially for trauma survivors who have typically had some part of our bodies or minds controlled by somebody else, trauma survivors who have been made to feel like their body isn’t their own or their voice doesn’t matter. We really struggle with boundaries, and I really struggled with boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [10:31]:

I once had a supervisor tell me several jobs ago that I had terrible boundaries. Actually, she didn’t say I had terrible boundaries. She said I had shitty boundaries, yelled at me and told me that I had boundaries. I was horrified by that. I was super young. I was super new in the field, and I look back at that and I’m like, huh? She was right. Now, don’t get me wrong. She was so, so wrong to say that, and it was so inappropriate of her to say that, and I was so angry at how she said that to me, but she was right, she was absolutely right.

Alyssa Scolari [11:15]:

And I have had to work so hard over the last several years to make my boundaries healthier. I believe that boundaries are a work in progress. I think we are always working on them, and I don’t think we ever get to the space where we’re like a hundred percent perfect in all of our boundaries. I don’t know, maybe we do, but I’ve never met anybody who’s a hundred percent perfect in all of their boundaries, but it’s something to always be worked on because at the end of the day, boundaries are the gateway to healing, they are the gateway to peace.

Alyssa Scolari [11:53]:

They are the gateway to good and happy and healthy relationships with ourselves, and others. Boundaries are everything. I firmly believe that, and so many other therapists out there also believe that. So we are talking about this right now. What are boundaries? Why do we need them? How do I know if I have poor boundaries? What do I do if I have terrible boundaries? How do I get better? Why is this so scary for me? How do I move past the anxiety around setting boundaries?

Alyssa Scolari [12:30]:

We’re talking about all of it, and we are not going to be able to fit all of it into one episode. So this is going to be a multiple episode topic, but we’re getting through it because I think that this is one of the most useful tools to have in your tool belt. Dare I say it is the most useful tool, at least for me, it’s been the most useful. Absolutely. So over the course of the next few episodes, I am going to be pulling a lot of information from one of my favorite books about boundaries, and the author of this book is Nedra Glover Tawwab, and if you don’t follow her on Instagram, you absolutely should.

Alyssa Scolari [13:21]:

She is incredible. She has 1.5 million followers. She is phenomenal, a phenomenal therapist. So I will link her Instagram as well as the book in the show notes. So you can feel free to go and check that out, but the title of her book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. This book is amazing. It’s not super long. I have listened to it several times on Audible, so I just listened to it in my car when I’m driving.

Alyssa Scolari [13:58]:

I highly recommend this book. It was truly life changing for me, and I think that this book was part of the reason why I was able to get to a place where I said no more to my relationship with my family. So let’s get right into it. The first question being, what are boundaries? And I think this is one of the first chapters in Nedra’s book Set Boundaries, Find Peace. What in the world are boundaries? How do we define boundaries? Right?

Alyssa Scolari [14:30]:

That word in itself when I bring it up to people, a lot of people, they know what they are, but have trouble putting words to it. So we’re going to break it down very simply which is boundaries are rules or expectations that need to be met in order for relationships whether that relationship is with ourselves or with other people. Rules, expectations that need to be met in order for relationships to operate in a healthy manner. In order for us to be happy, boundaries are required.

Alyssa Scolari [15:15]:

So let’s break that down a little bit, right? It might make sense at first to be like, “Okay, well, I understand why boundaries might be needed with other people, but what do you mean myself? How do I set boundaries with myself?” And sometimes, that looks like getting on a schedule, having a routine, making time to detox from technology, right? Getting off the phone, getting off the computer. All of these little things that we do are self-boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [15:49]:

They’re boundaries that we have with ourselves to keep ourselves happy and healthy. So why do we need them? Why on earth do we need boundaries? Well obviously, it keeps us happy and healthy, but what happens when we don’t have them? What happens if we don’t have boundaries that are strong enough or boundaries that are too strong? Well, according to Nedra, relationships that are complicated or relationships that don’t have great boundaries are among the leading causes of anxiety.

Alyssa Scolari [16:29]:

So poor relationships, relationships that aren’t healthy, relationships that need improvement on boundaries are one of the biggest causes of anxiety. And that makes so much sense because so many people come to therapy, not just in a vacuum, right? People don’t come to therapy and just say, “Well, I am struggling with depression.” Or, “I have an eating disorder.” No, behind the depression, behind the eating disorder, behind the anxiety disorder is typically, “Well, I have problems with this person and I have issues at work, and my boss is making me work 60 hours a week, and my mother won’t stop calling me and my partner won’t let me talk to other people of the opposite sex.”

Alyssa Scolari [17:19]:

People come to therapy with problems that involve more often than not other people. I have never sat down with a client who came to me with a problem, and the problem was just a little, just about them. This problem almost always encompasses other people. So when we don’t have boundaries, we don’t have healthy enough boundaries, we tend to fail in our relationships or our relationships don’t serve us, and this can exacerbate mental health disorders, and especially for somebody who has trauma, has a history of trauma, this can really exacerbate PTSD symptoms.

Alyssa Scolari [18:05]:

So how do you know if you are somebody who doesn’t have great boundaries? Well, a lack of boundaries in itself can trigger an onset of tons of negative things, right? Including resentment and anxiety and depression and avoidance can also include overwhelm, feelings of burnout. These are all signs that boundaries are poor. I learned in grad school, I think one of the most important things that I learned in grad school and a tool that I keep in my back pocket to this day is my professor said it, Dr. Jim Hall who is amazing, love Dr. Hall.

Alyssa Scolari [18:57]:

He said to us one day in class, “If you are feeling burned out, if you are feeling stressed out, if you are starting to resent some of the clients that you are working with, that is a sign that you need better boundaries in your life.” And I have never forgotten that. So this day, if I find myself getting not necessarily resentful because I don’t really resent my clients, but sometimes if I get frustrated, if I feel like I’m working really, really hard, and this person isn’t necessarily like meeting me halfway, or if I start to get burned out and I start to feel really, really overwhelmed, I know that that problem is my problem.

Alyssa Scolari [19:46]:

That’s not a problem for my clients. The problem isn’t my clients, it’s never my clients. If I’m feeling some kind of way, that is because my boundaries aren’t good enough or because something is going on within me, it’s not the client’s fault at all. That is a sign that my boundaries aren’t as great as they could be. And so to this day, every time I felt this way, I have made it a point to readjust my boundaries, tighten them up a little, and then I feel so much better, and I enjoy my job so much more because here’s the thing, right?

Alyssa Scolari [20:22]:

We live in this world where we almost shame selfishness in some ways. In some areas, we shame selfishness, right? Oh, you’re being so selfish. Oh, why don’t you care about anybody else? And then of course, in other ways, I feel like we live in a very, at least in the United States, right? It’s very every man for himself, every woman for himself, every person for themselves. But in some ways, I find when it includes mental health and relationships, interpersonal relationships, it is more along the lines of we get shamed for putting ourselves first.

Alyssa Scolari [21:11]:

Oh, well, how could you not pick up the phone when that person needs you? You’re not a good person. Why aren’t you, why aren’t you helping them move this weekend? And the thing about that is at the end of the day, you cannot save anybody else if you don’t put your oxygen mask on first. You can’t help other people if you can’t help yourself and you will continue to have relationships where you feel resentful, or you feel like your needs aren’t getting met until you decide that you have to come first, until you decide that you looking out for you is not selfish.

Alyssa Scolari [21:58]:

It is self-care. It is a requirement for survival for thriving. You have to look out for you first. Now, this is a really hard concept for people who are chronic people pleasers. I was raised as a people pleaser. I was raised that it doesn’t matter what’s going on in your life, it doesn’t matter what’s happening in your world. You need to drop everything and be there for other people, and if you don’t, it’s selfish, it’s not right. It’s not okay.

Alyssa Scolari [22:34]:

This is very, very hard to do, right? Because for those of us who are people pleasers, as soon as somebody needs us, or as soon as the going gets tough, the first thing to go on our list is usually self-care. We will put self-care so low on the totem pole because we are trying to meet the needs of everybody else first. This is often really true with moms. Moms, dads, parents. This is so true.

Alyssa Scolari [23:01]:

We will put, I say we like I’m a parent. I’m a dog mom, okay? It counts. We will put our needs so low on the totem pole. I have to feed the kids. I have to get them dressed. I have to take them to their after school sports. And we during none of that make time for ourselves in the slightest. Now listen, I’m not saying it’s easy. Being a mom, I think is the hardest job in the whole world.

Alyssa Scolari [23:36]:

Being a parent in general I think is the hardest job in the entire world. Of course because of stigma, right? Because of the patriarchy, women are expected to do much more and often are doing so much more. So I think a lot of that pressure falls more on women and women are more likely to push their self-care to the side. So yeah, it’s especially difficult when you have kids, when you have little ones who need you constantly to make time for yourself, but again, you can’t show up as your best self to anybody if you’re not putting yourself first.

Alyssa Scolari [24:19]:

And when we’re not putting ourselves first and we’re not getting our needs met, then we start to resent other people. And we feel like, “well, I’m always there for other people. Why isn’t anybody showing up for me?” Because the other thing is, is that people benefit from you having poor boundaries, right? Nedra says this in the book and it is so important to remember. People benefit from you not having appropriate boundaries because then they can get more from you, and it’s not necessarily an inherently bad thing.

Alyssa Scolari [24:54]:

I’m not saying that the people in your life are like, “Oh, I can see that Jane has terrible boundaries, and I’m going to milk her for everything she is worth.” No, but it’s nature, right? People test limits. People see, they want to see how much they can get away with. So people are going to take advantage of your poor boundaries and then you’re going to feel resentful, you’re going to feel overwhelmed, you’re going to feel burnt out.

Alyssa Scolari [25:24]:

You’re going to start to get very anxious, and you’re either going to start to get angry with people, or you’re going to become very depressed and you’re going to feel lonely, and perhaps might isolate. Maybe you get a lot of anxiety because you don’t want to talk to anybody. You don’t want to open your inbox. You don’t want to look at all your emails. You start to have panic attacks on Sunday nights before work the next day because you don’t want to know all the work that your boss is going to put on you. You avoid, right?

Alyssa Scolari [25:57]:

You avoid. You either lash out at people or you avoid and you try to disappear. Now, I took a survey on my Instagram in a way to prepare for this episode because I thought it would be interesting to get all of your feedback. And I asked the question when you are in a conflict with somebody, what are you more likely to do? And the options were avoid conflict at all costs, set boundaries with the person and talk it through or cut the person off completely.

Alyssa Scolari [26:40]:

Now much to my surprise, nobody said cut the person off completely. Nobody said that. A few people said set boundaries, but the overwhelming majority of you, I think it was 88% of you said I will avoid conflict at all costs. And I see this so many times in my practice too. People will come in and they will avoid conflict and avoid conflict, but then their mental health will get worse and worse and worse. And honestly, I think that’s what was happening to me over this last month.

Alyssa Scolari [27:23]:

I was avoiding ending things with my family. And so my mental health got worse and worse and worse and worse until I couldn’t take it anymore, and I had to decide that I needed to come first. So this happens all of the time. Now there are three different types of boundaries. And first, we have poorest boundaries. Okay? So what are poorest boundaries? These are often people with weaker boundaries like in the sense that they have a lot of trouble setting those boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [28:03]:

So they’re too involved with other people. They will ruin their own day just so they can be there for somebody else. They will cancel their doctor’s appointment just because somebody calls them and says, “Hey, I need you. Do you have time to talk?” These people are highly dependent on other people and they have a really difficult time with feeling highly anxious, overwhelmed, very burnt out.

Alyssa Scolari [28:31]:

These are your people pleasers. Very difficult time saying no, always wanting to help others. Yes, I’ll help you move. Yes, I’ll cancel my plans with my family and I will help you move. Yes, I will drive to your house for the millionth time even though you never drive to my house, and I won’t say anything about it, but I am going to feel resentful. These are people who often struggle with like codependency and enmeshment.

Alyssa Scolari [28:56]:

They become extremely attached to other people. In general, they just struggle to say no. I just can’t say no to anybody, and then we have healthy boundaries. Healthy boundaries is exactly what it is. It’s when you are setting rules and expectations with yourself and other people without your past trauma showing up to the interaction. I hope that makes sense. This is something that I have taken from Nedra’s book, and this is what she says, and I think that it’s absolutely brilliant.

Alyssa Scolari [29:42]:

You are setting rules and expectations without letting your pain from the past, your trauma from the past show up. Without letting the fact that you have been abandoned as a child, the fact that your father left when you were younger, the fact that you have a history of sexual abuse, that’s staying in the past and here you are setting roles and expectations without apologizing, without over explaining, without feelings of immense guilt or anxiety. Those are healthy boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [30:20]:

That is what we are all striving for, easier said than done. I am much better at setting boundaries, but I sure as heck struggle with guilt and anxiety almost every time that I set them. And I think that this is just something that gets better over time and with practice. So then we have rigid boundaries. This is when your boundaries are just like entirely too strong.

Alyssa Scolari [30:48]:

Strong might not necessarily be the right word. I would say more rigid or inflexible boundaries. So when your boundaries are just entirely too rigid, and this can often look like folks who have like an all or nothing mentality sometimes. It’s like I never, ever, ever will allow somebody to borrow money from me, never. And they just take that boundary to the grave. There is zero flexibility, there is zero chance of like, “Okay, well, what if your child is hard up for money and needs gas in their car? Are you going to say no? They need gas in their car to be able to get to work. What are you going to say?”

Alyssa Scolari [31:36]:

These people don’t have space for that. They can’t think of a gray area. It’s like, “I am absolutely not going to do this or I am absolutely always going to do this. This could also be the person who go to the gym every single day. Now that could also be eating disorder related, but if this person’s just like every single day, I have to be at the gym from 4:00 p.m. to 6:00 p.m. and they are so inflexible.

Alyssa Scolari [32:04]:

Something pops up, there’s an emergency. I can’t come, I’m at the gym. I can’t come, I’m at the gym. There’s no wiggle room in their boundaries. People who have rigid boundaries will often cut people off. Again, and I said this earlier. They will cut people off without making attempts to set healthy boundaries. They don’t want to listen to anyone else’s input, and really what rigid boundaries do is it protects people from getting too close to other people.

Alyssa Scolari [32:38]:

It protects from building relationships, it puts a wall between them and other people. So those are the three different types of boundaries. Hopefully if you have listened to this, you can identify which boundary you have and which category that you fall into. Now, Nedra in her book, and I think that this is really important to mention. She also goes on to say that there are a few of the major areas that people struggle with when it comes to boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [33:18]:

And some of those areas are family, and I think this will make sense to a lot of us on this podcast. It is one of the hardest things to do to set boundaries with your family. Whether that’s you can’t keep giving money to your sister, or you don’t want your brother living with you anymore, or you don’t want your mother telling you how to parent your children. You don’t want her input, things like that can be very, very difficult for people.

Alyssa Scolari [33:54]:

Work. So many people go to therapy because their work is so stressful. People really struggle to set boundaries with work especially in this new work from home environment that most of us have fallen into since COVID, or not most, many. It can be really, really difficult to make that determination of when am I going to stop checking my emails? When am I going to make a decision that I’m not going to pick up the phone when I boss is calling me? At what time is that going to stop?

Alyssa Scolari [34:34]:

Romantic relationships, this is also another huge one. People struggle if their partners are doing something that they don’t appreciate, or that is harmful to them. People struggle, and I think a lot of that is the fear of abandonment. I don’t want them to leave. Friends, very similar thing. People really struggle to set boundaries for friends because they’re afraid of how people are going to react, and technology.

Alyssa Scolari [35:02]:

This is one that I think before really doing a deep dive into boundaries, I would’ve never even thought about, but it goes back to what I was saying in the beginning of the podcast where boundaries are really important to be able to set with yourself as well. How many hours a day am I going to be on my phone? How often am I going to check my email? Am I going to pick up the phone every time somebody calls me or am I going to let it go to voicemail, see what they want, and then get back to them when I have the space for it?

Alyssa Scolari [35:36]:

I’ve had to do a lot of hard work with technology in terms of just not scrolling TikTok at night, because all the blue light will keep you up for so much longer, and I struggle with insomnia. Just spending less and less time on social media because it depresses me. It really does, and also with emails and responding to people, feeling that need to just respond to people all the time versus looking at their texts or their voicemails, and then getting back to them when it’s convenient for me.

Alyssa Scolari [36:11]:

If it’s not, an emergency that I absolutely have to be there for like a life or death situation. So those are some of the main areas that Nedra Tawwab says that people struggle. And I believe it, I believe it. I think it’s really, really fascinating. So that is a lot of information that I just threw at you. If I haven’t convinced you already to get Nedra’s book, this is me saying you totally should because it’s a really, really good book, and I’m sure as I have spoken today, you all have been able to see a little bit of yourselves in what I am saying.

Alyssa Scolari [36:54]:

I am somebody who has poorest boundaries or I did have poorest boundaries. I think I have worked my way towards healthier boundaries, but I am just such a people pleaser. So this is something that I’ve had to work really hard on. It’s been very difficult, but extremely rewarding because my life, my business, my relationships have been so much healthier as a result of working on these boundaries.

Alyssa Scolari [37:25]:

So this is not the end of our conversation my friends. This is only the beginning of us talking about boundaries. We’ve learned a lot about how people struggle, the different types of boundaries, and now, we are also going to talk about how we set those boundaries, what some of the fears are, how some people might react. We’re going to get into more of the practical stuff.

Alyssa Scolari [37:53]:

I am really enjoying talking about this, and I hope that you have enjoyed listening. If you like what you hear, please feel free to leave us a review and a rating. It goes a really long way in helping to increase visibility of the podcast, and if you haven’t done so already, you can also feel free to check out the Patreon link in the show notes. There you can donate to the podcast if you are liking what you hear.

Alyssa Scolari [38:22]:

Even a little bit goes a really long way in terms of helping to make this podcast a well-oiled machine. I am so grateful for the Patreon members that we have. Also, if you are a Patreon member, you can make a special request for episode topics. You can feel free to reach out to me and say, “Hi, I would love to hear from you.” Take care, have a wonderful week, and I am holding you in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [38:48]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support.

Speaker 2 [39:25]:

[Singing].

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:19]:

Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Light After Trauma podcast. I’m your host, Alyssa Scolari, back with a solo episode, after taking a few weeks of doing a guest episode with Rebecca Christensen. It was a two-part series on narcissistic abuse. If you haven’t gotten a chance to check it out, it is very good. Go check it out. I was taking a break, mostly because I haven’t been feeling that great and physically I’m feeling mostly okay. But emotionally I have not been feeling well at all. April is just not my month. And so I definitely needed a few weeks off. So Rebecca and I had done this two-part episode and I thought now was a perfect time to be able to share it with you all, because it gave me a little bit of a break just to be able to recuperate and try to recover a little bit. And quite honestly, I am still not feeling good, at all.

Alyssa Scolari [01:33]:

And I think there’s a million reasons why. I already know the answer to the why, but the question of how do I get these feelings to go away or to leave? I have yet to answer that because I’ve been feeling terrible for, I would say at least like a month at this point. I have just been really struggling with depression. And I know that there’s a lot going on. Just as an example, this time of year, particularly, is really hard because four years ago was when my mom got really, really sick and she almost died. In fact, we were told that she was going to die and she made it and she survived, but not without months of her being in the hospital and being in ICU and her being up and down and up and down. And one minute she wasn’t going to make it. And the next minute she might have a chance.

Alyssa Scolari [02:43]:

It was an emotional rollercoaster for months. And I can’t forget it and I will never forget it. And I think this time of year is when it just hits me the hardest. My body… You Bessel van der Kolk said it best, right? Your body keeps the score. And my body has been reminding me that this time of year, four years ago, was really, really hard. I spent like 24 hours a day, just like praying to every God out there, that my mom would live. And she did. But it’s hard because I feel like… I don’t want to sound ungrateful because I’m very, very grateful for the circumstances, and I know other people don’t have circumstances like that. Other people do lose their parents. So I’m trying not to act like this was the worst thing that ever could have happened. But with that being said, I think that I need to acknowledge that it was very traumatic and it’s not even just that. It’s a million other things, too, that have been going on and changes in my life and shifts in my relationships that have been really, really hard for me.

Alyssa Scolari [04:06]:

And I have been depressed. And it’s really interesting to hear myself say that because I have always held… I think prior to becoming a therapist, I have always held such a stigma of depression. And I notice that the people around me, the world around us, people hold such a stigma about it. People are so much more likely to say I have OCD or I have anxiety, right? Anxiety is the big one. Anybody will walk up to you and be like, oh, my anxiety. Oh, my anxiety. But very few people will just kind of start talking about their depression. That is largely in part because of the stigma that we place on depression. It’s okay to talk about anxiety, but it’s not okay to talk about depression.

Alyssa Scolari [05:00]:

I don’t really know why. I could theorize why I think that depression is kind of more serious sounding. And when people think depression, they think suicidal. And when people think suicidal, it makes them very uncomfortable. And therefore, we don’t even want to breach that topic. So we’re not even talking about it. I think that has a lot to do with it. But ultimately, I don’t know for sure. But what I do know is that I even internalized that stigma for a while and had a really hard time talking about my depression. Happy to say, I don’t have that hard of a time talking about it anymore. I feel like I’ve really released that stigma. And so that’s what we’re talking about today.

Alyssa Scolari [05:45]:

We are talking about depression. I think we really haven’t yet just sat down, me and you, the listener, and had a chat about depression. I’ve had people on the show that I’ve talked about depression. Depression has been a theme of almost every episode that we’ve done, but what does it actually look like? And I think that what has really inspired me lately to share about this topic and to speak on this topic is, I think a lot of the judgements that I have received about my own depression, because if you had a conversation with me, you would have no clue that I was depressed. In fact, you would get the impression of the exact opposite. You would think that I was the happiest person in the world. In fact, people often describe me as being bubbly, which blows my mind, because that is the furthest thing from how I view myself… like bubbly me.

Alyssa Scolari [06:53]:

Absolutely not. I’ve often been compared to… I don’t know if anybody’s going to remember this, but the Powerpuff Girls with Buttercup, Bubbles and Blossom. That was one of my favorite shows growing up. People often compared me to Bubbles, who was like this very adorable little bubbly blonde. She was my favorite when I was growing up. And people often compare me to her and I don’t see myself that way at all. So let’s just talk for a second about what depression actually is, because contrary to what I think a lot of folks believe, depression is very, very, very different from sadness and in the DSM, which is that book that has all of the mental health diagnoses, it is really classified by multiple symptoms. And those symptoms are not like sadness. Sadness or a sad mood, is not a symptom of depression. That is how different they are… they’re not even close. Sad versus depression… completely different things.

Alyssa Scolari [08:08]:

So some of the symptoms of depression include, a loss of appetite or overeating… so maybe issues with getting in touch with your hunger and fullness cues, or even your hydration cues, your thirst cues. Issues with sleeping… having depleted energy, or maybe being tired all the time, feeling fatigued all the time. Having a low self-esteem, difficulty with concentrating or making decisions. Feelings of hopelessness or despair is another one. The loss of interest and pleasure in a lot of the activities that you used to once find very pleasurable. Problems sleeping… either you can’t fall asleep or you wake up throughout the night or you’re having nightmares all the time. Perhaps changes in weight. Perhaps not always. We talked about low energy, problems thinking or making decisions, thoughts of guilt or worthlessness. And it can be, again, not always, repeated thoughts of death or suicide or a suicide attempt.

Alyssa Scolari [09:20]:

So basically there’s two different kinds of depression in the DSM. There’s major depressive disorder. And then there’s different severities of that. So it can be mild, it can be moderate, it can be severe. It can be with psychotic features without psychotic features. Or we’re not going to go into that today, because honestly, that’s just going to bore you, but major depressive disorder… and that is when you have to have these symptoms, at least five of the symptoms for at least two weeks, then you can classify or qualify for having major depressive disorder. Then there’s dysthymia. And dysthymia is also known as persistent depressive disorder. Now, persistent depressive disorder, or PDD, or dysthymia as you’ll hear me call it throughout this episode, is less severe than major depressive disorder, but it lasts for much longer. So instead of having to meet five of those symptoms that I listed for PDD, you only have to meet two of those symptoms.

Alyssa Scolari [10:31]:

So it’s certainly a less severe form of depression. But in order to have dysthymia, you have to have felt this way for at least two years with little to no relief. Whereas major depressive disorder is sort of like extremely depressed, noticeable changes, severe changes, but then you come out of it and then maybe you go back into it again, dysthymia is sort of this lower level or like lower grade depression that is just always there. I got to be honest. I don’t love this. I really don’t love the way the DSM breaks down depression, because honestly, what the fuck? Like, okay, well, what if somebody has both? What if somebody has low level depression all the time, but then it gets really, really bad sometimes. Or there’s just so many loose ends with these with the way that depression is listed in the DSM.

Alyssa Scolari [11:31]:

And I’ve also almost always seen depression be a part of other mental health disorders. So it’s, is this person dysthymic? Do they have PDD or do they have trauma that’s taking them years to recover from. And as a result of the trauma, they have depression. Do we keep throwing diagnoses at people and just say, oh, well you have major depressive disorder. Oh, well it’s been two years. And now you have PDD… I guess I don’t agree with it. I think it’s very confusing for folks. And I think it’s very confusing even for mental health professionals. But, alas, this is what we’re working with here. But I think that it’s important to note that this really isn’t the be-all end-all for depression. I know I’ve said this before, but in order to even create these diagnoses, there’s no one way to create a diagnosis that’s going to be the way for all of eternity.

Alyssa Scolari [12:30]:

Basically what happens is a bunch of mental health professionals get together in a room and decide what criteria needs to be in place in order to meet… in order to get a diagnosis. So humans are fallible. Therefore, I think that all of these diagnoses in themselves can be fallible. And that’s what we’re talking about today, because the way that depression is listed in the DSM and the way that therapists are trained to spot depression is very, very stereotypical, which is great, but the majority of people don’t operate like this. Maybe not the majority, but many, many, many people do not experience these symptoms, but have depression or don’t experience these symptoms outwardly, I should say.

Alyssa Scolari [13:28]:

So for example, if we can look at Winnie the Pooh for a second… bear with me. Let’s take a look at Eeyore. Eeyore is your classic depression. He is depressed, right? Whether he has major depressive disorder or dysthymia… I would say he could probably have both. He perpetually has a low grade level of depression. I think sometimes maybe he feels a little better, especially after he finds his tail. But I would say that he also can suffer from major depressive disorder. I think that he doesn’t function as well as the other members of Winnie the Pooh. And I do think that he could meet… I mean, I don’t know for sure, but I think that if we talk to Eeyore, if I had him in my office, I think there’s a strong possibility that he could have at least five of the symptoms that also would give him a diagnosis of major depressive disorder.

Alyssa Scolari [14:36]:

When we look at Eeyore, we have no questions about it. We are… Eeyore is depressed, but we can’t really look at many people and go, that person is depressed. We just can’t. It doesn’t work like that. Most people don’t walk around acting that way or showing that, and depression has so many different faces. And this is where I tend to get very frustrated because I think that again, as a society, people expect that depression is going to just look like the moping sad person, but it’s not. And I have had multiple interactions lately, where, especially in this last month, as I said, I have not been doing well with… my depression has been… it’s felt unbearable, to be honest. I don’t feel well. And it sucks. And I am doing my best to work through it. And I am engaging in all of the coping skills.

Alyssa Scolari [15:42]:

I am not isolating myself. I’m trying to go out with friends. I am trying to get outside as much as I can, but at the end of the day, I still feel depressed. I still do. And I am just sort of like trying to ride the wave and wait for it to pass. But because I don’t look depressed, my depression doesn’t get taken seriously. So let’s talk about what depression might look like on me, because, well, basically when we look at depression and anxiety and perhaps a few other mental health disorders, we have people who go into really essentially two different categories. We have chronic overfunctioners and then we have chronic underfunctioners.

Alyssa Scolari [16:34]:

I am somebody who is an overfunctioner when I am depressed… meaning I will get out of bed. I will brush my teeth. I will do my hair. I will work the entire week. I will extend myself when people need me. If people reach out to me, I will make sure that I respond immediately. I will answer all my emails. I will prepare all my meals. I will eat. I will drink. I will go out with friends. Like I am go, go, go, go, go, go, go. I appear happy. I appear bubbly. I am laughing. I am cracking jokes. I know I shared on my Instagram story… for those of you who follow me, a couple weeks ago, I shared that I had gone out with friends and I went out to meet them for really the first time this… the one person I knew I hadn’t seen her in years, but the other people, I didn’t know. And that is really, really scary for me. Especially being in a state where I had been feeling really depressed and really vulnerable.

Alyssa Scolari [17:40]:

I put myself in this situation, which I thought was going to help my depression. And it did. I think that it did, but I went out and I had a good time. Everybody was great. I felt like I was with people who were very similar to me. And I was the life of the party. I was literally the life of the party. I was cracking jokes. I was telling stories. I was laughing. I was engaged. I was making eye contact. I wasn’t on my phone at all. I was playing with the animals. I was great. If anybody had been in that room and they had talked to me or they had even watched me, they would say, nope, there’s zero risk factor here. What people don’t know is that I came home that night and I was getting ready for bed. And I was very much in my head about, oh my God, did they like me? Did I say something stupid? Was I annoying? They probably hate me. I wonder if I’ll be invited back. No, I definitely am not going to be invited back.

Alyssa Scolari [18:48]:

And I had a quick exchange with my husband and he said something to me that I interpreted incorrectly as a result of already being on edge. I sort of thought that he was like upset with me and I lost it. Like had a panic attack that lasted four hours. And look, I know that a lot of people love to say panic attacks only last three to five minutes. That is some bull shit, okay? That is some bullshit. If somebody says that to you, that’s because they’ve never had a panic attack before. Panic attacks do not last for only three to five minutes. I could not breathe for hours. I was hyperventilating. I was sobbing. I was disassociated. I was… I was gone. I was gone. I was in a level of emotional pain that felt absolutely unbearable for me.

Alyssa Scolari [19:54]:

And as a result of that chronic breakdown, I barely slept. I woke up the next day feeling emotionally hungover. I was exhausted. And when I’m tired, I get even more depressed. So I kind of like lost my weekend to a meltdown that I had merely hours after going out and appearing like everything was absolutely fine. When I am depressed, and when people who are overfunctioners are depressed, you’re not going to see us kind of like laying in bed. You’re going to see us going and going and going and going until we break. And that is sort of… that is what I do. That is my tendency. And the more depressed I am, the more high energy I’m going to be. Maybe that sounds a little wild, but here’s my reasoning behind it.

Alyssa Scolari [20:50]:

I can’t speak for other people, but my reasoning behind it is because the more upset I feel… the more depressed I feel, the more vulnerable I am and I hate being vulnerable. It is really, really terrifying for me. I am working on it, right? The part of this podcast is… this whole episode is me being vulnerable. This is really hard to talk about, but when I’m vulnerable, because I hate it so much, I feel like I need to put on more of a show so that people can’t tell that I’m hurting because it almost keeps people at bay, right… because people can’t look at me and see my sadness. So they’re not going to ask… because I’m like, don’t ask me. Please don’t look at me. Please don’t see through me. I don’t want you to see through me and see that I am in agony. I over function. So nobody knows.

Alyssa Scolari [21:44]:

Outwardly I don’t display any of those symptoms, but I come home and I fall apart. And every symptom is there. I know one of the sure-fire ways when I am depressed, is that I stop drinking water. I literally just stop. Like I cannot get in touch with my thirst cues at all. And then my hunger cues go away. And then I feel tired all the time and I stop eating. And it’s like… this past Saturday, I don’t think I ate a full meal until four o’clock. And that is so unlike me, because I’m usually so good at getting all my meals in.

Alyssa Scolari [22:26]:

So depression can look like over-functioning. So please do not look at the people around you who appear to have it all together and say, oh, you don’t know what it feels like. You don’t know what it’s like to be depressed… because I’ve had several people kind of say that to me this past month where, if somebody asks me how I’m doing, and I’m, honestly, I haven’t been doing well. Or I said… I had an event to go to where I actually said hey, I don’t think I’m going to be able to make it. I’m not really feeling well. And you know, this person was, oh, are you sick? And I was, no, honestly, just emotionally not doing well. Don’t think I want to go. I really think I need this night to myself. And this person was… this person is not a close friend of mine, at all.

Alyssa Scolari [23:16]:

So I didn’t really… it’s not like this person like knows me really well. And it’s not like I really care all that much that this person said this, but it does kind of piss me off… in general, I’m not angry at the person, but just in general, as a society like that, we think this way, because this person was, oh, but you look happy all the time, when I see you. I didn’t know you were going through stuff emotionally. And I wanted to be, well, we are all going through stuff emotionally. Have you not been around for the past several years? We are all going through it. What do you mean, I didn’t look sad? Oh, I’m sorry. I’m sorry I didn’t look sad. And I’ve just had several little comments like that throughout my life of people being, oh, well you didn’t look sad or, oh, well, depression… you never told me you were depressed. First of all, I don’t need to tell you. I don’t need to tell you.

Alyssa Scolari [24:17]:

But second of all, I don’t care what I look like. I’m telling you my experience. Why are you invalidating it? And so I think the people who have depression, who over-function really struggle with this, as much as we kind of over-function because it’s protective for us and we don’t want to let people in. We also feel really, really hurt when people invalidate us. Now, listen, I’m not saying that’s anybody’s problem to fix. I need to be perhaps not so guarded and I need to learn how to tone down my over-functioning and I have… even telling somebody, hey, no, I can’t go to this, I need to take care of myself… that is huge for me because in the past I would’ve been like, go, go, go, go, go. Because I grew up being taught that it is never okay to inconvenience somebody else for your own personal needs.

Alyssa Scolari [25:13]:

Right? I grew up being taught that all that matters is making other people happy. I grew up being taught that it only matters what you look like to others… doesn’t actually matter how you feel. What matters the most is what you look like to others. But some people, when they’re depressed, they become underfunctioners. And that is okay. We tend to glorify overfunctioners. And I hate that because overfunctioners, as a result of never letting themselves really feel their feelings and slow down, they tend to develop high blood pressure and high blood pressure is actually considered the silent killer. It is considered the silent killer and studies have found over the years that so many folks with high blood pressure have been able to manage it through stress management. So it is all so linked. So, but here we are glorifying overfunctioners.

Alyssa Scolari [26:15]:

underfunctioners don’t necessarily have the same struggle with the high blood pressure. They might, right? They may, but it’s not necessarily a result of them under functioning because your underfunctioners are people who have trouble showering. They have trouble brushing their teeth in the morning. They have trouble eating or drinking, or they will not text anyone back for weeks at a time. They won’t show up to anything. They sort of fall off the face of the earth and they struggle with even the most basic things. Simply the act of breathing can feel difficult on the days where the depression is really, really bad.

Alyssa Scolari [27:05]:

Now there is also a stigma against underfunctioners. And that stigma is that they are lazy. They are flaky. They are dirty, right, especially when we talk about how hygiene can sometimes go, when we’re feeling really depressed. So many people turn their nose up to that. Ew, oh God, Ew. How could you not brush your teeth? I don’t understand how you could just not brush your teeth and lay in bed all day. Or I don’t understand how you could just not wash your sheets for two months. I get infuriated when people say things like this, and honestly, I have been surrounded by people my whole life who are overfunctioners who disparage underfunctioners. How could you let your house get dirty? How could you do this? How could you do that? It’s called depression and we need to stop judging it.

Alyssa Scolari [28:07]:

Now I am not saying that every single person with a filthy home has depression. That’s not what I’m saying here, but what I’m saying is these can be signs of depression. If you walk into someone’s home for the first time and you notice that it is dirty, that might not be because that person is lazy or doesn’t care or wasn’t raised right. No, that can be a huge red flag for depression. Somebody’s bad breath could be a huge red flag. Maybe it was all they could do just to get to work. So I’m trying to get us to understand that depression doesn’t just look like some sad, mopey, Eeyore-like character. Depression can look like the person who comes in with a full face of makeup. You know, they come into work with a full face of makeup and a minty fresh breath, or it can be the person who comes in… they look like they barely put a comb through their hair and their breath reeks.

Alyssa Scolari [29:11]:

We can’t call people names as a result of either. We cannot look at underfunctioners and make judgements on their character when we don’t know, because that could be the face of depression. The person with a full face of makeup could be the face of depression. I am the face of depression. I am one of the many faces of depression. I struggle with depression on a regular basis. I have been so tired at times that I haven’t been sure how I am going to go on. There are days where I under function as well. They are a little bit more rare for me because my tendency is to over-function, but there have been days where I’m like, I can’t get out of this bed. I just can’t do it. And therefore, I didn’t eat. Therefore, I never got to brush my teeth and you know what? I am no less of a person. It doesn’t make me lazy. It doesn’t make me gross. It doesn’t make me unhygienic. My teeth haven’t fallen out. I have not hurt anybody as a result of my under functioning.

Alyssa Scolari [30:33]:

So there are stereotypes of both, overfunctioning under functioning, major depressive disorder, dysthymia. Whatever you may be struggling with, whatever anybody may be struggling with, it is still excruciating pain. And I want us to remember that the next time we go to cast aspersions on somebody or make judgements. And I want us to remember that the next time that we are in conversations with people, because I, myself am like a victim of being… or not a victim. I’m not a victim. I am a victim of people kind of looking at me and saying, oh, well, you can’t be depressed, but I have been wrong before by looking at other people and being like, huh? Why didn’t you shower? Like what is going on here? Right. I have judged people by being like, what the heck happened. That can be a face of depression.

Alyssa Scolari [31:31]:

So this is something for all of us to work on, but this is also something for us to learn about ourselves. Are you an over-functioner? Are you an underfunctioner? What does your depression look like, because what I described coming out of the DSM, that’s not all depression can look like. And I think that once we sort of identify for ourselves what it looks like for us, then we are able to catch it much more quickly and can then work to recover from it. It’s not always going to look like it does in the textbooks. It’s going to look different for each and every one of us. So I think it is really helpful to figure out what it looks like for you.

Alyssa Scolari [32:14]:

And one way you can do that is by journaling, right? What does my depression look like for me? And you can think of all of the examples that I’ve just given and you can decide for yourself. And maybe there are things that I’ve left out. Maybe there are things that I am not aware of myself. Hey, let me know. You know where to find me, and, oh, I don’t think I mentioned that at the beginning of this episode, but you can give us a follow over at Light After Trauma on Instagram.

Alyssa Scolari [32:42]:

And if you are a Patreon member, and you would like, you can certainly request an episode topic. I know a few of you have done so, and I am working on getting to them. When I get an episode topic, I like to do my research on said topic because I don’t want to come in just like making stuff up… obviously that’s not helpful for anybody, so I like to do my research. So once you request a topic, it is going to take me some time because I want to look into it. I want to read about it. And I want to feel equipped enough to be able to share with you what I’ve learned, especially if it’s not something that I’m familiar with. So just keep that in mind. The Patreon is in the show notes, so you can feel free to go and check that out.

Alyssa Scolari [33:29]:

And thank you so much for the support as always. If you have not done so already, please feel free to leave a rating or review of the podcast. It helps so much. I hope that everybody’s having a good week. I am hoping and I’m praying for a better week on my end. I am just… yeah, I am feeling terrible and I don’t have any follow ups… there’s no buts after. There’s no, oh, I know it’s going to get better because… I do know it’s going to get better, but it’s not helpful for me to kind of say that. Sometimes we just need to be in it. And that’s kind of where I am. I just need to be in it. I just need to acknowledge that I am not even a little bit okay, but I am I’m here and I’m doing my best to keep myself moving and enjoying the sunshine and just making the most. But it is what it is for right now until I feel better.

Alyssa Scolari [34:35]:

So I hope that you are all doing very well. I love you all. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week. Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media… on Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari, and we have part two today of our episode about narcissism with Rebecca Christianson, who you all know very well at this point, is the founder and owner of Rebellious Wellness Counseling in South Jersey. We are just going to jump right into it, pick up where we left off. So if you have not listened to last week’s episode, please be sure to do so because we are breaking down narcissism into a two-part episode and this is part two. So if you didn’t listen to part one, please remember to go back and listen. And really, we are just picking up where we left off. And where we left off is wanting to talk about the differences between covert narcissism and overt narcissism because narcissism can be glaring and in your face, but it can also be much more subtle. And I think Rebecca and I can probably both agree that both types are terrible, but covert narcissism can be, I don’t know if I want to say a little bit more insidious, but it can be much more confusing for the victims. So do you want to take it, Rebecca? What do you have to say on that?

Rebecca Christianson [01:43]:

One of the ways that narcissism can be covert is that sometimes narcissists play this down, depressed … They elicit empathy and you always end up feeling sorry for them. And so people are like, “Oh no, they’re not a narcissist. They’re depressed,” but certainly there are times where people are depressed and are down and do need empathy and support. The problem is that a narcissist uses that to entice people to feel sorry for them. But those traits of narcissism like selfishness and they’re never really trying to help other people, it’s always just about getting people to help them. It’s always about them.

Alyssa Scolari [02:33]:

Yes. Yeah, I can think in a relationship, a red flag for this could be … And I guess I should say this and I think we might have said this in the other episode, but if we didn’t, then it bears saying now. So Rebecca and I are giving examples, but the loved one in your life that you are thinking may or may not be a narcissist, we are not diagnosing this person. We’re not that person’s therapist, so we can’t diagnose people. And simply because we are giving traits of what a narcissist can look like does not necessarily mean that somebody who has these traits is always going to be a narcissist. So just keep that in mind as you go through this process and just reflecting off of what Rebecca said, I think, a good example might be. The narcissist even tries to elicit sympathy if you are the one with a problem. Right? Would you agree with that?

Rebecca Christianson [03:34]:

Yep. Yes. Right. They elicit sympathy even if you’re the one that has the problem, they will turn it around so that you are then taking care of them. They lack the ability to have compassion or empathy for other people. It always has to turn back around them so there’s a very selfish nature in a covert narcissist and they keep you in this detrimental cycle. And it’s really sometimes hard to see because we typically think of a narcissist, an overt narcissist, who is egocentric and the need for adoration and arrogant, also very selfish and lack sympathy, but very overt about it. And a covert narcissist does that very under the radar. It’s hard to see sometimes.

Alyssa Scolari [04:30]:

Yeah. I think a covert narcissist, we can look at Adolf Hitler, I think we could say, was a clear example. And potentially some other political leaders in this world at this very moment, we can clearly identify them as overt narcissists. They are loud and out there about the fact that they really don’t care about anybody but themselves and their own personal gains.

Rebecca Christianson [04:58]:

But they’re very charming and there’s that love bombing stage that we did talk about, I think, in part one, and they have this way of making you believe that even though they have those personality traits, you’re the one that sees the real them. You’re the one that can change them. You’re the one that can help them understand why other people see them that way. They can hook you until you hit the devalue phase and discard phase. But even though the way we’re talking about them, it seems like, “Well, who would even want to be friends with them?” they have a way, and that’s the love bonding stage. They have a way of making you feel like a million dollars when you’re with them in the beginning.

Alyssa Scolari [05:44]:

Yes, they’re so charismatic, so charismatic. And I think also another good way to identify a covert narcissist is the one upper. Who’s the one upper in your life? You had a bad day, they had a worse one. You got a nail in your tire. Well, guess what? They got four nails in their tire. Your kid is difficult. Well, guess what? The kid that they had is 20 times more difficult. You can’t even begin to imagine how hard life is for them. Yeah. It’s like the constant one upper in your life.

Rebecca Christianson [06:20]:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You’re a hundred percent right about that. I think one of the things we talked about in this interview is are all narcissist abusive? Now, I did some research and I thought about that and that’s a hard one. I don’t know how to answer that. I really don’t.

Alyssa Scolari [06:44]:

Yeah. I was thinking about this question too, and it’s hard for me to picture a situation in which they’re not abusive. I know we’re not supposed to really be using all or nothing generalizations about people, but it’s really hard for me to picture a narcissist who isn’t abusive because they feed off of the attention from others. So it’s not like a narcissist would ever just be a lone wolf, that they would never have an effect on other people. Right?

Rebecca Christianson [07:27]:

That’s exactly what I thought too, is it’s hard to imagine a scenario where that would not be an abusive cycle, where that would not turn into. It’s really hard to imagine that. And I think one of the things that piggybacks of what we were saying earlier, as we’re talking about, you think, “Well, who would want to be friends with somebody like that? Who would want to be in a relationship?” And as you mentioned, they’re huge charmers. Their personalities are bigger than life. You’re drawn to them.

Rebecca Christianson [07:58]:

And I think a lot of times, at least when I see people, I’m sure when you see people too, who have been victims of narcissists, they feel ashamed and feel like there’s something about them that allowed them to … They’re not smart or they’re not self-aware, all these different things, so I thought that was really important to point that narcissists get attracted to people who are intelligent, who have really good qualities. They are empathic and they do have a lot of compassion and they show a lot of heart and they’re open. That’s who narcissists are attracted to. So if you have those qualities, which are all really good qualities, you’re a target for a narcissist. They need their ego fed and they need it fed by somebody who’s intelligent and self-aware and open and empathic and can be vulnerable and are mature and have a lot of friends. That’s who they need their ego fed, so the qualities that most of us strive to have are all what narcissists target.

Alyssa Scolari [09:09]:

A thousand percent, a thousand percent. They’re not going for easy prey because it doesn’t do anything for their ego. Relationships are all about feeding their ego.

Rebecca Christianson [09:19]:

All about feeding their ego. People who are all often successful and have many achievements and all those things, because that is who they want to feed their ego. If they can hook them, it just is all the better, too. And I think that’s an important thing for people because they break you and they come out of that abusive relationship and you feel none of those things about yourself. That feels like another person. That feels like the former you. Therapy for somebody who’s a victim of that is about helping them reattach to that person that they are, that they still are, but they’ve lost in this abusive cycle. They’ve lost themselves, but helping them reattach to who they really are and mend friendships that they’ve lost and mend the relationship with themselves.

Rebecca Christianson [10:17]:

I read this thing about the first step is learning how to observe, be an observer and observe your own thoughts and feelings and that person’s thoughts and feelings and actions. And when you can start just observing, you can then start to have some detachment from the cycle, that abusive cycle, and some clarity. And then, obviously once you start to detach, going to therapy and starting to reattach to that former self that you feel like you lost is so important. But I read this thing about, if you don’t know where to start, start meditating and be mindful, because meditation teaches you how to detach from your thoughts and feelings. And I always thought that was such a great piece of advice because it’s so true. If you just start meditating, just the act of meditating forces you to detach from your thoughts and feelings and observe them, and then you start to observe their thoughts and feelings. And when you can learn to detach them a little bit, then you stop the effect of that abuse momentarily so that you can start to see it for what it is instead of get sucked into it. And I thought that was really good advice.

Alyssa Scolari [11:37]:

Yeah. I love that. And I almost think that can sometimes be the role of what the therapist does if you aren’t able to get there in that moment, where you can be mindful and step outside yourself. That’s where I think a therapist is so important. As you’re talking, I’m thinking about myself and the clients that I’ve dealt with who have had narcissists in their lives and they haven’t been able to do that at first. So it’s the thing that us as therapists do because we are literally the outside person and we can say, “Hey, this is what this is looking like,” and then we teach you to then be able to do that for yourself. And yeah, I think that is the first big step to healing.

Rebecca Christianson [12:22]:

I do too. I do too. I thought that was really … And then mindfulness teaches you to be aware of the in the moment and be aware of how you’re reacting, what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling and how you’re reacting. And sometimes when I teach mindfulness, as in DBT, that one whole section of DBT, one of the cornerstones of DBT is mindfulness. And sometimes when I teach it, I talk about self-respect and personal integrity and being able to be mindful of what you’re thinking, what you’re feeling and what how you’re reacting and how that’s landing and what your intent is. And there’s a certain amount of self-respect and personal integrity when you can stay mindful and be aware of those things because you’re more likely to react in a way that is congruent with your intent. I thought that was really interesting. Also, the role of a therapist in helping somebody heal from narcissistic abuse, to help people, teach people, mindfulness because you get sucked into that abuse and you become reactive. That’s why I say that can break you. You can become somebody that you don’t even recognize and …

Alyssa Scolari [13:48]:

Oh, absolutely.

Rebecca Christianson [13:50]:

Yep. And you can break off friendships, family relationships, whatever you have to do to keep that relationship because it becomes all important to you, so I feel like mindfulness is a really important skill too, in the treatment of healing from a narcissist.

Alyssa Scolari [14:10]:

Yes. No, it’s so important. And I think about my own experiences and I remember … You say you don’t even recognize yourself. You don’t even know how you end up light years away from who you used to be and you don’t know how you got there or how you’re even going to begin to get yourself back. I remember when I was dating a narcissist and for the listeners, if you’ve been a long time listener on this podcast, you all know about my experience with being in a very abusive relationship. I left my home, moved in with this dude. And before I knew it, literally before I knew it, I had cut off my entire family, didn’t speak to any of them, and I was looking for apartments for us to live in. I was a college kid. I couldn’t afford an apartment. I could barely afford a cup of coffee, but I was suddenly about to pay 50% of the rent for a really fancy apartment in a really ritzy area because he told me that this would make me happy. And I was like, “This doesn’t make me happy. I’m going to be alone and broke. And you’re going to be living with me and I don’t even think I like you.”

Alyssa Scolari [15:34]:

You lose yourself. And I think, in talking about the treatment that victims get, mindfulness, absolutely. And I think further along that journey is boundary setting. Whether or not you’re still in that relationship, boundary setting. Would you agree with that?

Rebecca Christianson [15:59]:

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I think that’s, like you said, farther down that journey. I feel like once you can start to detach from the thoughts and feelings that you’re having and you can observe what’s happening for you and you can observe what’s happening for them and you can start to identify the abuse and you can start to become mindful and aware of what your needs and wants are and not just what the narcissist’s needs are wants and your desire to fulfill that bottomless well, you can start to, again, focus on what some of your needs are wants are. I feel like then boundary setting is … And some people were really good at boundary setting and then they got caught up in a narcissistic abuse cycle and they’ve lost that ability. It’s just remembering boundaries are life sustaining. We need boundaries for everything and …

Alyssa Scolari [16:58]:

Your whole life.

Rebecca Christianson [17:00]:

Your whole life. Boundaries do not make you a selfish person. Boundaries make you a healthy person.

Alyssa Scolari [17:05]:

Yes, and this is important. This is especially important if the narcissist in your life is a parent or is the person who raised you. This is especially important because oftentimes, we have parents or caregivers who are narcissists and it’s not so easy to just cut them off because you can’t just break up with them. You breaking up with a caregiver doesn’t make them not your caregiver. You breaking up with a parent doesn’t mean that they’re no longer your parent. Now, you could go no contact, but for some people, it takes years to get there. And for some people, that’s never an option, so I think especially when the narcissist in your life is a parent, I think boundaries are crucial. Crucial down the road, of course, after you learn how to solidify your voice and take back what was taken from you.

Rebecca Christianson [18:11]:

Yep. Exactly. No, I absolutely agree. Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [18:15]:

Now, we’re talking about treatment for the victim of a narcissist, but what about treatment for a narcissist? Can narcissists get treatment? Will they get treatment? And if they do, what does that look like?

Rebecca Christianson [18:36]:

I have, over the years, seen a few narcissists that have gotten treatment, have been successful, I should say, in treatment. So they often do not seek treatment because this is an ingrained personality disorder. And like you said, we are not diagnosing somebody that we don’t know in somebody else’s life. To be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, you have to meet criteria for a period of time and you have to meet the criteria in the DSM-5, and that has to be over a period of time. It’s not just like these personality traits are present in one relationship. They have to be there pervasively for a period of time. But I have seen over the years, a handful of narcissists that have successfully been treated. And in all of those cases, them seeking treatment was brought on by a traumatic event in their life or an illness or accident that was life-threatening. So oftentimes, that is when the consequences of some of these personality traits hit home. When they are facing a life change or an illness, something that could possibly, they would need a caretaker or they’re going through treatment, sometimes that is when some of these personality traits, they become aware of some of these personality traits and how they have impacted other people because they’ve alienated so many people.

Rebecca Christianson [20:22]:

Or some tragedy, so I have seen one narcissist who went through the loss of a child and that really shook him to the core. I think it was some of his family and friends’ reactions to that tragic loss that made him seek treatment and want to understand why he was that way and wanted to change.

Rebecca Christianson [20:45]:

And it was years ago, many years ago, but I do believe that he successfully changed. Treatment, for him, was some exposure therapy, learning to sit with the uncomfortable truth of his fragile ego and how he would do almost anything to cover that anxiety or for somebody else to soothe that anxiety. So exposure therapy and DBT, because I think that all people with narcissistic personality disorder really missed some of the cornerstones that DBT can teach you, like emotion regulation, distress tolerance, interpersonal effectiveness. I think they’re missing all of those. Mindfulness, I think they’re missing all of those. They didn’t learn them along the way because they learned very early on to get their needs met. They had to manipulate and that worked for them, so they never stopped manipulating. They never learned how to tolerate distress. They never learned how to regulate their own emotions. They just expect somebody else to feed that fragile ego and they keep manipulating to get that need met. They don’t really worry about meeting their own needs. They never meet their own needs.

Rebecca Christianson [22:09]:

So some exposure, where they are sitting, not literally naked, but emotionally naked and being able to force them to regulate those emotions, and learn skills, then, to regulate those emotions … And interpersonal effectiveness is really fascinating, the few times that I’ve been able to teach that to a narcissist, because they think they are very interpersonally effective because they always get their needs met. But what they don’t realize is that they burn through, it’s in an abusive way, so even though they think are getting their needs met, they’re just chewing up and spitting out somebody else. They’re not actually meeting that need and …

Alyssa Scolari [22:58]:

Right. They’re not fostering any genuine connections.

Rebecca Christianson [23:01]:

Nope. And so that’s always fascinating. I think they can. I think typically, it’s too painful for them and so I feel like that’s why it has to take a life threatening illness or some tragedy for them to get this … Not always, I mean, but …

Alyssa Scolari [23:23]:

Yeah. For the listeners out there who might not know what DBT is, that term might be new. I’m trying to think of a good way to summarize what DBT is. I love DBT and I used to hate it, but your girl loves it now. DBT is a type of therapy. It stands for dialectical behavioral therapy and that is really a fancy term for … Dialectical, that term in itself means that both can exist, the good and the bad, living in the dialectic, where all of it can be true and you can sit with it. Would you agree with that or am I off on that definition?

Rebecca Christianson [24:08]:

Yeah. No, I think that’s spot on. It’s a set of skills.

Alyssa Scolari [24:13]:

Yeah. DBT is really heavy with skills that, again, teach you how to effectively communicate with other people, how to deal with your emotions if your emotions are feeling so intense and out of control. Anything else? I feel like that sums it up. It’s teaching you basic life skills. But when I say basic, things that we really all need because nobody gets enough of it, like learning how to foster good relationships, learning about boundaries, learning about empathy, learning about self-compassion for yourself, taking care of yourself emotionally, things like that.

Rebecca Christianson [24:55]:

And learning how to relate authentically. I think understanding how to relate your intent and have it land the way you want it to land and mindfulness, being mindful. I think lots of things have impacted our ability to be mindful, our phones, social media, immediate gratification, so those have all impacted our ability to be mindful, so that’s what DBT is. It’s skills training to learn skills related to those concepts that we all need, that we all need to have.

Alyssa Scolari [25:34]:

That we all need, exactly. Exactly. And then so going back to what you were saying about narcissists and what will cause them to get treatment, absolutely. And I work with a lot of teenagers and young adults. I work with people of all ages, but most of my practice is filled with lots of teenagers and young adults. And I will also see that parents who are narcissists will only go to therapy after their child has gone no contact or has said, in a case of parents who are divorced, if the child lives with dad and dad is the narcissist, they’re like, “I’m going to live with mom. That’s it, I’m done,” and that is what will land a parent in therapy. My teens or my young adults will come in and they’ll be like, “Well, now all of a sudden, my mom is in therapy. I’ve been asking her for five years to go to therapy when I was living with her. I move out and suddenly she’s in therapy.”

Alyssa Scolari [26:34]:

But often what I find, too, with some narcissists is that if they do go to therapy, they will often seek out a therapist who they can also manipulate and who will validate them. I’ve seen a lot of the parents of my kids go to therapy and then they’ll come home and they’ll be like, “Well, my therapist thinks that you are being B, B, B, B, B, B, blah.” Now, whether or not the therapist actually said that, who knows, but the narcissist’s interpretation of therapy can often be to their benefit and then sometimes it can be another tool in their arsenal that they can use against their child. I’m sure you’ve seen that sometimes, right?

Rebecca Christianson [27:17]:

Yes, absolutely. Yep. It can be another tool that they use, like, “Well, my therapist said,” but that therapist is getting one viewpoint. And I always think as a therapist, if it looks really simple, there’s probably more to the story. If it looks like, “Oh, this person is the best parent in the world. Why would there be a problem? It must be the other parent or the child or whatever,” that I feel like you’re probably not getting the whole story. And the other time I think that narcissists show up in therapy is in couples therapy, when they’re on the brink of divorce. And the person that they have abused is finally leaving or has left or has filed for divorce or whatever and they’re scared, so that is always really difficult to mediate in couples therapy.

Alyssa Scolari [28:27]:

So hard.

Rebecca Christianson [28:29]:

Yep, really difficult.

Alyssa Scolari [28:31]:

It’s so hard. So one last question that I’m curious to know your opinion on is if somebody is listening to this out there right now and they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I think that I have a narcissist in my life. I think that I have somebody in my life who is a narcissist.” Would you recommend that they say it to the person that they think is a narcissist and say, “You need to go get help.” Have you ever seen that that has been effective?

Rebecca Christianson [29:08]:

No, I don’t. I don’t think a narcissist is going to take that and that critique and become suddenly self-aware and less selfish. I think that they’re going to be verbally abusive to the person who says, “I think you’re a narcissist.” So I think that if somebody thinks that they’re in a relationship with a narcissist and they want to stay in the relationship, they should consider couples counseling because I would let the professional point that out.

Rebecca Christianson [29:53]:

And I think that’s the only time that maybe they might be, if they have a connection to a therapist and feel like that therapist understands or at least has the good of the relationship and is their priority, then there’s a chance that they might listen that some of their traits. I rarely think that calling a narcissist a narcissist is a good idea. I really don’t think, even as a therapist. I usually just identify the traits, like, “Can you understand how that feels self-serving? Can you understand how that can be really construed as there’s a flavor of arrogance in that?” I feel like that’s much more palatable to a narcissist than being like, “I think you’re a narcissist. You should …” I just feel like that’s aggressive.

Alyssa Scolari [30:53]:

Yes, absolutely.

Rebecca Christianson [30:53]:

So I feel like pointing out the traits … That’s not to say that I haven’t said, “I think that you have a lot of narcissistic traits.” I just don’t always say that till I formed a relationship where they trust me enough that I can say that and they’ll actually receive it as constructive.

Alyssa Scolari [31:17]:

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for joining [crosstalk 00:31:26] part two with me.

Rebecca Christianson [31:26]:

Yes. Always a pleasure.

Alyssa Scolari [31:27]:

This is one of my, I don’t know. I’m very passionate about talking about this. I love it. And I also think that narcissism can be really overused and I think it’s one of those words that people just throw out there very lightly, but it’s actually really, really damaging. So, just like we talked about, if you are listening and you resonate with this and you feel like you have a narcissist in your life, you could potentially be opening yourself up to being hurt and opening yourself up to more abuse if you do directly confront that person and say, “Hey, I think you’re a narcissist.” And I think that either couples counseling or if it’s a parent or if you’re in a relationship and you don’t want to continue the relationship or you don’t know, get help for yourself because ultimately, that is all we can do, is help ourselves. We can’t change people. So I think that’s really important to keep in mind because when we are in relationships, we love other people and we want to see that other person get help, but you simply can’t and you have to come first.

Alyssa Scolari [32:39]:

So thank you so much for joining me today.

Rebecca Christianson [32:42]:

Absolutely. Always a pleasure.

Alyssa Scolari [32:45]:

Thank you. I hope that everybody has a wonderful week. Hang in there. I know times are tough right now. I will be back next week with another episode. And until then, I will be holding you all in the light.

Alyssa Scolari [33:00]:

Thanks for listening, everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks, so please head on over. Again, that’s paton.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

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Transcript

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

Hello, beautiful people. Welcome back to another episode of The Light After Trauma podcast. I’m your host, Alyssa Scolari. This is a two part, well, really a two part series. This is going to be two episodes today, and it is a guest episode. It has been a while since we’ve had a guest episode. I know that we he had talked about me sort of reeling back on guest episodes and being much more particular with who’s coming on the show, just because I know that you all are really interested and have really, really liked the solo episodes that I’ve done.

Alyssa Scolari [00:57]:

But you all also love today’s guest, who is a friend of the family, friend of the podcast, it’s Rebecca Christianson. Duh, would it be anyone else? We love Rebecca. She has been on this podcast to talk about grief. She’s been on the podcast to talk about guilt and shame, and she’s incredible.

Alyssa Scolari [01:19]:

Today she’s on the podcast to talk about narcissism. And I know this one’s going to be a really big hit for you all because narcissism is honestly a very hot term right now. It is a really hot topic. It is all over TikTok, all over social media. But before we dive right into narcissism, I just want to take a minute to let you know who Rebecca is.

Alyssa Scolari [01:41]:

If you are a new listener, Rebecca really started out as a mentor for me and became, honestly, one of my closest friends. She’s absolutely a soulmate of mine. We were absolutely meant to know each other in this life and every other life after that. And she really is the reason why I am the therapist that I am today.

Alyssa Scolari [02:05]:

So Rebecca is the founder of a group practice called Rebellious Wellness Counseling in the state of New Jersey in the United States. And I will, of course, link her group practice. She works with a bunch of wonderful people. She does amazing work. She is, especially you do a lot of grief, right? Like that’s like you special when I think of you, I think like you do grief, but you also do couples, right?

Rebecca Christianson [02:33]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [02:34]:

Yeah.

Rebecca Christianson [02:34]:

Yes.

Alyssa Scolari [02:35]:

Rebecca does two of the hardest things that I think any therapist can do. So I will absolutely link her group practice in the show notes for today. So let’s just hand it over to Rebecca. Welcome.

Rebecca Christianson [02:51]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me. You always say the nicest things. You are the therapist that you are because you are extremely talented and work really hard, but thank you for giving me credit for that.

Alyssa Scolari [03:04]:

All shucks. Thank you.

Rebecca Christianson [03:05]:

Yeah. So I am always honored to be on the podcast. I love, obviously, I love talking to you. I love tackling some of these topics that I think are complex topics that everybody has to handle, but don’t always understand exactly how to handle it or how it affects their lives. So I’m happy to be on it.

Alyssa Scolari [03:27]:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And we make a really good team, which is why I feel like tackling narcissism today is like, you and I are really, really well suited to do this together because it’s a really heavy topic, right?

Rebecca Christianson [03:42]:

Yep. Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [03:43]:

And it’s something that I think gets talked about a lot, but also often very misused and overused. And so I think here’s an interesting fact for y’all, right? So the word narcissism in itself is at actually derived from the Greek mythological figure, Narcissus. And basically the story of Narcissus is that he fell in love with his own reflection. And what narcissism is at its core is really just self-absorption but pathological self absorption.

Alyssa Scolari [04:21]:

So that’s where the name comes from. And I think when it comes to narcissism, there’s one way that therapists diagnose it. But then there’s an entirely different way that I think you guys can understand it and recognize it in others. And that’s kind of a little bit more important.

Alyssa Scolari [04:48]:

So the way that therapists diagnose it is, obviously, you all have heard of the DSM. I’ve talked about it on this podcast before. It’s like the holy grail for mental health diagnoses. It’s what therapists turn to in order to diagnose somebody. And there is a personality disorder in there called Narcissistic Personality Disorder. And this is how therapists would really diagnose somebody. And really what it is it’s this pattern of grandiosity.

Alyssa Scolari [05:23]:

They just, people, who think that they just have this huge amount of self importance. They often exaggerate their achievements and their talents. They are preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, or ideal love. They believe that they are super special and unique and that they are very high status and everyone else is below them. They require excessive admiration. They constantly need other people to be doting on them and thinking that they are just the bees knees.

Alyssa Scolari [06:01]:

They have an extreme sense of self entitlement, very unreasonable expectations, and they always think that they should be favored above everyone else. They exploit people, especially those who are closest to them. In other words, they try to take advantage of the people around them to meet their own needs. And they lack empathy. They cannot identify with feelings or needs of others and they often can seem very arrogant, right?

Alyssa Scolari [06:33]:

So that’s a very brief run through of what those symptoms look like in the book that therapists use to diagnose. But it’s a little bit different when we’re just in our day to day life. So Rebecca, can you actually talk about, I don’t know. I feel like what I just said was a very hoity-toity way of describing narcissism. Can you break this down? What does that actually look like day to day?

Rebecca Christianson [07:02]:

Yes, absolutely. I think that one of the things that’s important to remember about narcissist is that underneath it all, it’s a very, very fragile ego and that extremely, extremely fragile ego, came from somewhere, right? Oftentimes it comes from childhood trauma. Oftentimes it comes from neglect or abuse where a child doesn’t get their needs met. So they have to manipulate to get their own needs met and they build this wall or protection around that very fragile ego. And no one can see the fragile ego at any cost. So they will always externally get their needs met instead of getting their needs met from within.

Rebecca Christianson [07:55]:

That would be… The only thing that was really healing for them is to go in and process through the things that made that ego so fragile. But they, at a very young age, protect that fragile ego at all costs. At all costs. At the cost to anyone else their needs will always come first and that the hallmark of a narcissist.

Rebecca Christianson [08:14]:

So I’m going to quote Shahida Arabi who wrote, Becoming the Narcissist Nightmare, because this is my favorite quote about narcissist. It says, “The first thing you must know about a narcissist is that you will never truly know anything about the narcissist.”

Alyssa Scolari [08:30]:

Ugh. Yes, yes. That’s it, case closed. End of episode.

Rebecca Christianson [08:37]:

Closed, there you go. You’ll never really know. And I really believe that because they don’t know. They’ve created such a false self that they don’t even remember why they became a narcissist. One of the questions I get all the time is like, “Can a narcissist heal? Can they get better?” And the answer to that’s, yes. Rarely do they do the work that’s required to get better, but they can. But that would be going back to the childhood trauma, whatever happened that made them realize that they felt they needed to manipulate their environment to get their needs met, that they were not lovable enough to get their needs met just by being who they were.

Rebecca Christianson [09:29]:

And that’s so painful. Usually by the time they show up in our office, that’s so painful that they rarely do that. But the times that I’ve seen narcissists actually do that work is either they have a terminal illness, and because they have never truly been able to connect authentically with anyone, they don’t have very many people who are going to take care of them. Or they’ve had such a traumatic loss in their life that it’s shocked them to their core. And they don’t want to continue to live that way.

Rebecca Christianson [10:03]:

So, those are the times. But I think how it would show up, you said a lot of the things, I think that when you notice somebody has the inability to empathize with you or with other people at all, like if you have a friend that’s a narcissist and you tell them they have the inability to empathize, but they understand people, so they can fake empathy. They can…

Alyssa Scolari [10:30]:

Yes. They’re typically very, very charming.

Rebecca Christianson [10:34]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [10:34]:

But when it comes to empathy, it could look like you confide in a friend about something and or you tell a friend something, right? And if that friend goes, “Oh, well they deserved it. They deserved it. They had that coming.” Right? Or it could be, this person responds in a way that’s like completely ignores what you’re talking about and shifts the focus onto them. “Oh, well, when I was that age, it was even harder for me. Babababa.”

Rebecca Christianson [11:07]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [11:07]:

Yeah.

Rebecca Christianson [11:07]:

Yep. Or they will fake empathy if they think that’s going to get them something. So they’ll be like, “Oh, that was a hard day at work.” And like this, whatever it is, because they think that they’re going to get something out of that. So sometimes they’ll fake empathy to get their own need met at the end of the day. And then if that doesn’t happen, they get angry. So the inability to authentically apologize, see hallmark up. You notice that somebody cannot take accountability. They will skirt accountability for something that they have done that has hurt the other person or isn’t right or whatever. They cannot authentically apologize.

Rebecca Christianson [11:47]:

You said this before, but it will always be somebody else’s fault. There will always be a reason why they cannot take accountability and authentically apologize. Also hallmark of when you notice that with someone that you’re around or involved with, that’s definitely a hallmark sign. And then if you confront them, they become extremely angry.

Rebecca Christianson [12:11]:

In fact, there’s a term called Narcissistic Rage. And that’s if they perceive their ego as being challenged, some people have narcissistic rage. And then you did a podcast earlier that I listened to about gaslighting. This is where gaslighting comes in. They’re unable to take accountability. So they will gaslight at all costs. And it becomes, because they’re usually extremely bright and charming, it can become almost impossible to pick up on the gaslighting.

Rebecca Christianson [12:47]:

Some people are so good at that, that your head is spinning and you don’t even understand what just happened. It’s not until you tell somebody outside of that interaction or relationship that they might be able to see, “I think they were gaslighting you.” Because it’s real, some people become really good, they become professionals at not taking accountability.

Rebecca Christianson [13:14]:

And the thing about, again, they’re very intuitive, very perceptive, very charming, and very bright. So they will learn things about you, your Achilles heel, your soft spots, and that’s where they’re going to hit. So when they gaslight you, it’s not going to be always about the actual thing they’re not taking accountability for. They’re going to gaslight you and hit where they know it hurts so that you will be blindsided, taken off guard, all these other things. So ultimately they don’t have to take accountability.

Rebecca Christianson [13:47]:

I think those, and then you mentioned self-absorbed, always bringing the conversation back to themselves. I feel like if you’re in a relationship or a friendship or a work relationship with somebody who has more than one of those characteristics, they are probably a narcissist.

Alyssa Scolari [14:05]:

Red flags, red flags, red flags, red flags. Yeah. And I think gaslighting is the narcissists best friend. Best friend, that is their biggest tool. And as you’re kind of saying all this, I feel like now’s a really good time to read the Narcissist’s Prayer. So this perfectly, for the listeners out there, reflects everything that Rebecca is saying and then some. It’s like, The narcissist’s prayer is, and by the way I did not write this. And I actually don’t know who wrote this. I tried to look it up and there’s a couple different versions of it, but I don’t know. It says the author is unknown when it comes to this specific version of it.

Alyssa Scolari [14:50]:

But the Narcissist’s Prayer is, “That didn’t happen. And if it did, it is not a big deal. And if it was a big deal, then it was not my fault. And if it was my fault, well, then I didn’t mean it. And if I did mean it, then you deserved it. Now this conversation is over. I am done talking about it.”

Rebecca Christianson [15:12]:

I think that says it perfectly. And so many people, here’s the thing about narcissists, right? So many people, as you were saying, all of the kind of DSM-IV criteria, I think two things. I think one on a bad day, we all feel selfish, right? It’s normal to have moments of time where we feel selfish, that’s normal. But we feel remorse and regret when that selfishness might have been at the expense of someone else. But there’s remorse, there’s guilt or shame.

Rebecca Christianson [15:48]:

Narcissists do not feel guilt or shame for that. They are self-absorbed to a pathological point, and you said that in the beginning and I wanted to reiterate that, they’re not just having a selfish day. They’re not just self-absorbed about the promotion they want at work. It’s a way of living for them. It’s to a pathological point.

Rebecca Christianson [16:11]:

And I think we all have narcissist in our lives and it’s hard. It’s hard because when you get close to, and I know Part Two is going to be more about the relationship with the narcissist, but when you get close to putting up a boundary with a narcissist, they love bomb. And when they love bomb, it feels as if they’ve heard you and they understand the error of their ways.

Rebecca Christianson [16:36]:

They don’t say that because they can’t take accountability. It just feels that way. And then you’re hooked again. Then you’re hooked again. And these characteristics will show up again. So if you think you’re in a relationship or have a friend or a work relationship where you’re in, or you think they’re a narcissist, and you start to point that out or you start to set different boundaries because that doesn’t feel good, and they make you feel like they understand the error of their ways they want to change. But these show back up again, run, run because they’re a narcissist.

Alyssa Scolari [17:13]:

Run far.

Rebecca Christianson [17:14]:

And they just love bombed you. And now you’re going to be right back in the same cycle. And gaslighting is, I think, the number one way that narcissists manipulate, but they also use silent treatment.

Alyssa Scolari [17:25]:

Yes.

Rebecca Christianson [17:26]:

Silence actually sets off the same pain receptors as physical pain.

Alyssa Scolari [17:33]:

Oh, I did not know that. It makes sense.

Rebecca Christianson [17:36]:

It does. Giving someone the silent treatment sets off the same pain receptors as actual physical pain in our brain. It’s so painful to be ignored, rejected, abandoned to feel those feelings to suddenly have silence. So it’s also a huge manipulation tactic for narcissists.

Rebecca Christianson [17:54]:

Stonewalling, the end of the prayer that you read, “And I am done with this relationship,” refusing to talk about things is also a huge manipulation tactic. And then comparison. So they need the attention from everyone, right? So they will often compare what you’re giving to what other people, past girl friends, other people that they are in their lives can give them, can feed them. So another huge manipulation tactic is to compare what you’re offering to other people, whether that’s imagined or real, to get you to up your ante, to get you to do more.

Alyssa Scolari [18:38]:

Yeah. And I also think that another too, well, you mentioned the love bombing, right? And for folks out there who may not have heard of this phrase before or may have heard of it, and don’t quite know what it is love bombing is, again, the narcissist isn’t taking accountability for his or her or their actions, but they are showering you with gifts, showering you with affection, spending money, maybe money that they don’t even have, on you.

Alyssa Scolari [19:06]:

Suddenly you have that Prada bag that you have always wanted. Suddenly they are paying for you to go on a trip. Suddenly, you’ve been asking for three years to go and visit, I don’t know, the state of Vermont in the fall because it’s beautiful and guess what? All of a sudden you’re going there. And they might be showering with you with words of affection as well, “I love you. You’re so important to me.” They tell you everything, like Rebecca said, that you want to hear, that makes you think that they have taken accountability and seen the error of their ways. But without them actually having to say that, right? So that’s love bombing.

Alyssa Scolari [19:41]:

But then the other thing that I always see with narcissists is their attempt at isolation, right? So yes, also the comparison, but they will also do this thing where they will make you feel like you’re alone in the world. And they might say very subtle things like, “Oh, did you see the weird way your friend was looking at you there?”

Rebecca Christianson [20:06]:

Yeah.

Alyssa Scolari [20:06]:

Right? “Did you see the way she rolled her eyes when you guys were talking? Do you really think she’s a good friend?” When I was in a relationship with a narcissist, he would tell me time and time again, that my family hated me, that they hated me. And after a while, and he wouldn’t sit me down and say, “Alyssa, your family hates you.” But it was very subtle. It would be, “Huh? Are you sure you’re okay with the way your mom said this?” And, “Are you sure you don’t feel some kind of way about the way your dad said that.” And, “Oh, well, I heard that your friend, so and so, said this about you.” These very seemingly small things that suddenly, before you know it, have you feeling like you can’t trust anyone else, but the narcissist.

Rebecca Christianson [20:53]:

Mm-hmm [affirmative].

Alyssa Scolari [20:54]:

Do you agree with that? Did I explain that correctly?

Rebecca Christianson [20:55]:

I totally agree. Yes, I absolutely agree. They will… Until they’re the only one that you trust, but they never, ever go, it’s never going to actually be about you, it’s always going to be about them. And the reason they do that is so that they don’t have competition so that when you don’t have anyone to say, “You know, he said or she said this to me.” And for them to say, “That’s gaslighting. They’re gaslighting you.” Or like, “That’s not okay. They’re breaking you down. You’re not yourself.”

Rebecca Christianson [21:37]:

Isolate you from everyone that can give you perspective, so that they are your only perspective, because they’ll isolate you from anyone who can challenge them. Especially anyone whose smart enough to see what they’re doing.

Alyssa Scolari [21:54]:

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Rebecca Christianson [21:56]:

Yep. I think that whenever… Another kind of hallmark I feel like I see a lot in people who come in and they’re in a relationship with a narcissist is, they want to change. If you feel like you want to change or teach the person you’re in a relationship with something, like about being a decent human, if you feel like they just don’t understand how to treat people properly or be nice or kind, right? Sometimes people will say, “I just don’t think that they understand.” It always is a red flag to me. My ears always perk up and I start to listen because you shouldn’t have to teach a normal person how to be decent and respect people. If you’re in an adult relationship, you shouldn’t have to, that’s something that you teach toddlers. That’s not something that you should teach an adult.

Rebecca Christianson [22:54]:

They should know that. That should be… So if you feel that way, be careful, because narcissists can’t learn that.

Alyssa Scolari [23:04]:

Yes.

Rebecca Christianson [23:04]:

They do not get something from being inherently kind. If they’re kind it’s to feed their ego. It’s to get something fed. It’s not just about, it’s never about the other person. So that’s something else. It’s like a hallmark in relationships when you feel like, “Oh, I just don’t think they… They just don’t understand how they come across.” They know exactly how they come across and they’re being an asshole to your friends because they don’t want you to be in those friendships because those people are picking up on the fact that they’re a narcissist. So it’s all manipulation.

Alyssa Scolari [23:41]:

Absolutely. 1000%. 1000%. I think you make a really good point there. And I think before we wrap up with this Part One today, and we’re going to get into more on the next episode about some differences between covert and an overt narcissists and what does narcissistic abuse look like in the victim? What are some of the longterm effects of that? What does treatment look like? We’re going to talk about that in the next episode, but I also, before we close out, I really wanted to say that it’s important for you guys to remember out there that this narcissism is defined by a pattern. Because you could take any one of these things in an isolated incident, and it might not necessarily mean somebody is a narcissist, right?

Alyssa Scolari [24:27]:

Like Rebecca said, we all have selfish tendencies. Being selfish isn’t a bad thing at times, right? We all can be self-absorbed. So in an isolated incident, I don’t want you to see this and then think immediately of this podcast and go, “Oh my gosh, this must be a narcissist.” Because that’s not necessarily the case. It is a pattern, a consistent pattern, so please keep that in mind.

Alyssa Scolari [24:54]:

And with that being said, I think, unless there’s anything else you wanted to add today, Rebecca, I feel like this might be a good place to wrap up with this episode. And then…

Rebecca Christianson [25:09]:

I think that’s great. I think that in our next episode, I want to touch a little bit on, this is something you and I talked about, the covert versus overt narcissist. I do think a lot of times, there are like closet narcissist and sometimes that gets missed and people are in unhealthy relationships. But we can definitely start with that, pick that up, next time.

Rebecca Christianson [25:32]:

And then start to talk about, there is some interesting characteristics that narcissists look for in people. I think sometimes victims of narcissists feel like there must be something wrong with them, but actually narcissists choose really intelligent victims. And they choose people who have really good qualities that are usually very intelligent. That’ll also be a great topic to pick up with next time.

Alyssa Scolari [25:58]:

Perfect. So at that, I think we are going to wrap up and we will be back with the second part of this series next week. And if you are enjoying what you’re hearing and you’re enjoying the podcast, please do not forget to leave us a review. Reviews are incredibly important. They help us to continue to grow and that is the goal. We can get people to be aware that they have access to free mental health support and education through the podcast. And we do that by continuing to grow.

Alyssa Scolari [26:33]:

And if you are a patron on Patreon, don’t forget that you can also message me directly through Patreon and you can make episode requests if there’s a specific topic that you would like to hear, please feel free to do that. And if you are not a Patreon member yet, please feel free, if you are able to do so to sign up, to become a member. And anything that you are able to give towards the podcast would go a really long way in terms of helping the podcast to pay for itself and helping us to pay for all the different types of things that we do to be able to make this podcast what it is.

Alyssa Scolari [27:13]:

So thank you all so much. I am holding you in the light and I will see you next week.

Alyssa Scolari [27:19]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com. Or you can also follow us on social media, on Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod.

Alyssa Scolari [27:36]:

Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you. And we appreciate your support.

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Transcript:

Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:

What’s up everybody. It’s Alyssa Scolari. I am your host of the Light After Trauma Podcast. Welcome back to another episode, talking about self-sabotage today. I’m very passionate about this one. Very passionate. I’m going to get real raw today and it’s going to be really uncomfortable.

Alyssa Scolari [00:45]:

Trigger warning just upfront. We’re going to be talking about some sexual abuse related stuff. Not the whole episode. So you can feel free to skip when I’m talking about it and yeah, that’s what we got today. We’re talking about self-sabotage.

Alyssa Scolari [01:02]:

Just some housekeeping things. Thank you, of course, as always for all of the love and the support. In case you missed it on the last episode, we raised $110 for Doctors Without Borders to help in Ukraine, which is so exciting. You can actually see the receipt for the donation on the Instagram. My Instagram is Light After Trauma. So feel free to go check it out. You can see the receipt, but if you signed up to become a Patreon member for the month of March, whatever you donated for that month, I matched with my own money. And then we sent that to Doctors Without Borders. So that was really fun. That was really awesome. And I can’t wait to continue to do this for like other causes and charities and ah, it’s good stuff. Good, good stuff. I’m super proud of us in our little community. So thank you. Thank you.

Alyssa Scolari [01:58]:

If you still want to become a Paton member, you can head on over to the show notes and that would extremely helpful. Anything you are able to give towards the podcast really helps keep this podcast up and running. So I appreciate it. Thank you for your also reviews and ratings. It helps the podcast to grow. It helps get the word out. So anytime you leave a review, it is extremely, extremely helpful and helps the podcast to move up in the ranks. And then when it moves up in the ranks, it becomes more available to people. So thank you. Thank you very much. And I think that’s it.

Alyssa Scolari [02:40]:

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that’s not it. I did want to say you are all the best, you really are. Because last week’s episode, when I was talking about my horror story with the EMDR therapist, some of you emailed me and gave me referrals to therapists in your area or therapists that you know of that you thought would be great. And I just love it. I’m so thankful for the support. I can’t even begin to tell you how much it means to me. And it’s also really nice to hear from you because I feel like I have a bunch of friends out there, but I don’t necessarily have confirmation of that unless I hear from you in some way, shape or form. I don’t know who you are unless you reach out to me. So I just love it when I hear from people. It’s so much fun. I just feel like I have a bunch of friends. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Alyssa Scolari [03:43]:

As an update on the EMDR front, the therapist that I had, and if you listened last week, you kind of know what happened. That the therapist I had ghosted me completely and it was horrible. After one session, I went back to our second session and he did not show up. And there’s a little bit more to it, but you can feel free to listen to last week’s episode if you want the details. So I reached out to him and it took me a few days to do it because I struggle with boundaries and I feel guilty when I set boundaries and I wanted to him the benefit of the doubt, of course, always. And I felt super guilty. So it took me a little bit of time to be able to say, “Hey, I actually don’t want to move forward with you.”

Alyssa Scolari [04:32]:

I was really determined to tell him, instead of just ghosting him, not because he deserves an explanation because quite frankly, I think the angry part of me wanted to do to him what he did to me, which is just not show up for my next session, but my card would’ve been charged for a late fee. And quite frankly, I don’t feel like paying for it… He doesn’t deserve my money, honestly, but also I wanted to practice boundary setting. This was a good opportunity for me to practice dealing with all of the feelings that come up when I set boundaries. So he basically just responded…

Alyssa Scolari [05:16]:

Well, I texted him and I was like, “Hey, after having some time to process, there have been several scheduling errors. And then after you not showing up last week, that was really like the last straw for me and I really need a therapist who can give me consistency. So I don’t think that you and I are going to be a good match moving forward.” And he just responded and was like, “I understand and I sincerely apologize,” or some crap like that. I mean, I’m glad that he was able to accept it and not retaliate or say something kind of snarky, but at the same time, it’s still just like, it’s your fault, dude, because honestly he could have repaired that relationship. He could have. If he had picked up the phone and called me to make sure that I was okay, but I just… It’s kind of hard to explain.

Alyssa Scolari [06:10]:

I feel like unless you’re super familiar with EMDR, you can’t understand that missing any kind of therapy session, for a therapist to not show up can be super damaging for anybody. It’s a little bit perhaps less damaging if you’re not doing EMDR. And that’s not to say that I would like invalidate anybody’s feelings because whether I have EMDR or not, if my therapist didn’t show up, or if I didn’t show up for one of my clients, I would absolutely expect abandonment stuff to come up. And I would have to take accountability as the therapist, or I would expect my therapist to take accountability. Now, God forbid, if there was like a real emergency. I mean, of course, I would understand it. I would hope my clients would understand it and I would hope we would be able to repair.

Alyssa Scolari [07:01]:

With EMDR though, EMDR can leave you so raw. And he warned me in the session. He was like, “You’re going to be really raw. You’re going to be really emotional. It’s going to be really difficult. There’s going to be a lot of intense stuff that comes up.” So he knew that. He told me, and then he just didn’t even bother to call me. And he had the ability to call me because he was talking to me or he texted me. And so I know he had the ability to at least touch base with me. And he really offered no real explanation for why didn’t show up. Of course, I know the reason. I know he fucking forgot because he didn’t read the text message that I sent him when he asked me to remind him when our appointment was, which is problematic in itself. But I digress.

Alyssa Scolari [07:53]:

So there’re just so many other things that he could have done to repair that relationship. And if I were in his shoes, I would have that client on the phone in a heartbeat, not charging them a single cent and seeing how they’re feeling, if I triggered their abandonment. How we can repair this relationship. And no, maybe I’m not going to stay on the phone with them for an hour. I wasn’t asking for a free session, but he should have touch base with me. He had no idea if I was safe, unsafe, he had only met me one time. So the whole thing is just really infuriating that he can be like, “Oh, EMDR is going to be one of the hardest things you’ve ever done.” And then just like not show up and really not give a flying fuck about how I am. So he’s gone. I did it. I set a boundary and I feel really good about it. In hindsight, of course, it was not easy doing it, but I feel good about it now. I think I might have found somebody else. So we’ll see. I have my first session scheduled and we will see how it goes. Enough about that. We can transition into self-sabotage.

Alyssa Scolari [09:09]:

I did a fun little thing this week, where I had a poll on my Instagram. And I asked you all to tell me what you wanted to hear, because I was going back and forth between talking about self-sabotage and talking about borderline personality disorder. And obviously I definitely want to talk about both on this podcast, but many of you requested the self-sabotage. So that is what we are doing today.

Alyssa Scolari [09:35]:

Self-sabotage is basically behaviors that you engage in that hinder your progress. It’s pretty self-explanatory. And I think that a lot of self-sabotage can be an unconscious thing, something that lives in your subconscious, we are not aware that we are doing it. And I have picked up on a lot of my own self-sabotaging tactics over the last like several years, I’d say, and I’m a little bit more aware.

Alyssa Scolari [10:11]:

I think for me, the issue is I become aware of self-sabotage right after I do it. So obviously the goal is to be able to identify what you’re doing before you do it. I tend not to do that. Sometimes I do, but hey, I’m a work in progress. We all are. And I think that there are stages of progression when it comes to dealing with self-sabotage, you might recognize it four months after the fact. And then you might recognize it two weeks after the fact. And then you might recognize it immediately after the fact. And then you’re going to get to the point where you’re going to see yourself, you’re going to catch yourself in it, and you’re going to be like, “Nope, not doing this because I’m self-sabotaging.” So it’s a progression.

Alyssa Scolari [11:03]:

Now, there are all kinds of self-sabotages. There’s holding yourself back from going after that degree you really want. There’s refusing to go out with friends anywhere because you don’t want to deal with the anxiety that can come up with social interaction. Things like that can be, not always, but they can be self-sabotage.

Alyssa Scolari [11:26]:

We’re not going to be talking about all the types of self-sabotage today. What we are going to be focusing on is a kind of self-sabotage that again, I don’t think many people are consciously aware of, but really can hold you back in your recovery. And that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Self-fulfilling prophecy is absolutely self-sabotage. Let me explain how.

Alyssa Scolari [11:53]:

Sometimes our thoughts are so powerful that we can think them into existence. We can think them into reality. Have you ever had to go somewhere that you really don’t want to go to and you’ve been dreading it and you’re like, “This is going to suck. This is going to be horrible. I’m going to leave feeling terrible. I’m not going to have any fun. I’m not going to make any friends.” And then you go and it was just as bad as you always thought it was going to be, or maybe even worse? Maybe it was always going to be that bad, maybe not, but maybe you talked yourself into things being that bad. Maybe you talked yourself into an argument with your partner. Maybe you talked yourself into a panic attack. I’m not self-blaming. I hope that my words don’t come off as that, so I’m going to explain.

Alyssa Scolari [12:55]:

Again, let’s go back to this event. I have this event to go to. I don’t really feel like going. I’m not going to like anybody there and it’s going to suck. So if you are going into it feeling that way and feeling very, very anxious and telling yourself, “I’m going to have a panic attack beforehand, because I can’t leave my house. I don’t like to engage with people.” You are more likely to act in ways that align with the beliefs in your brain, because the thoughts that are coming up in your head, you are not taking those thoughts and going, “Okay, that’s one possibility, but there could also be many other possibilities I could have a decent time.”

Alyssa Scolari [13:36]:

More often than not, we are not doing that because I think especially as trauma survivors, we tend to try to stay in the black and white, because that feels better for us. So we like definitive concrete answers and thoughts and beliefs. So our brain goes to, “This is going to be your reality. You’re going to go to this party. This party’s going to suck. You’re not going to make any friends. Nobody’s going to like your outfit.” And then we end up just believing that no matter what we do from now until this party, the outcome is always going to be the same and we are going to have a terrible time. But perhaps that is not the case.

Alyssa Scolari [14:15]:

Perhaps if you were able to identify those thoughts and say to yourself, “Okay, yeah, this is not ideal for me, but what if I might not have a horrible time? And what can I potentially do to make it so that I may not have a horrible time? What can I do? Can I try to pick out an outfit that I really like and feel really, really good in? Can I try to see who is going to be there and who I can connect with ahead of time so that I’m not feeling so alone? What can I do for the rest of that weekend to make my weekend very relaxing and enjoyable for me to ease the fact that I have to go to this event that I don’t really like?” Thinking of ways that you can make your beliefs about a future event, not a reality. Make it a possibility, not a factual-based reality. And there are other ways that this shows up. I’m going to give you one example.

Alyssa Scolari [15:29]:

Many of you know I am in pelvic floor physical therapy for my endometriosis. I had surgery in late January, and I’ve been in PT for about probably since December, since before my surgery. And I go every week. And it has been really hard because it is very invasive. For those of you who don’t know what pelvic floor physical therapy is, well, it involves a lot of things based around strengthening the pelvis, but also all of the muscles in and around the genitalia. Basically, it’s like going to an OB-GYN appointment and having your internal examination last for 30 minutes. Because I do some strengthening work, but also I have to go and… I do want to include as an aside. I probably should have said this a little bit earlier, but I do want to include a trigger warning here because I am go going to be talking about sex. We’re talking about sex. So if this is something that’s uncomfortable for you, please feel free to go ahead and skip. Just want to offer a trigger warning right here and right now.

Alyssa Scolari [16:46]:

So for pelvic floor physical therapy, it involves me having to go. I have to take my pants off and she has to insert her fingers to be able to work with the muscles. She is retraining my muscles to calm down because everything is so tense because I have been in such excruciating pain for months on end. So she is having to work on all of the muscles inside of me. And as you can imagine, it is extremely triggering for somebody who has a history of sexual abuse. A few weeks back, I had a panic attack actually. And my physical therapist is amazing. I cannot complain about her whatsoever. She is super trauma informed, she is so safe, because I would not be going if I didn’t feel extremely safe around her. But I actually had a panic attack in physical therapy a few weeks ago, and she helped me through that.

Alyssa Scolari [17:47]:

I just think that you guys know how I feel about the mind, body connection. Your body holds so much trauma. Mine certainly does. And so when she will like hit certain spots, my body will have a reaction in the form of a panic attack or some kind of trauma response that I have to work through. Perhaps a memory will come up. It has been a really difficult process. So she was teaching me about something new that she wanted to do to help me and I was extremely triggered by it. Again, it was nothing that she did because she’s wonderful, but I was really, really triggered by it and I was like, “I don’t know how I’m going to be able to do this. I don’t know if I’m ready to do this. This feels uncomfortable.” And I got through the appointment okay, but I think the emotions finally caught up with me when I got home. I on the drive home felt so like short of breath almost to the point where I was like, “Wow, do I have asthma?” Because I can’t breathe.” But it was my anxiety.

Alyssa Scolari [19:01]:

And so I kept telling myself, I was like working myself up into a panic. And I was like, “Oh my God, I can’t do this. I can’t do this. I can’t go back to physical therapy. This is too much. This is too hard.” And so I’m like working myself up and I’m working myself up and I’m like physical therapy is going to make me even more stressed out because it’s bringing up all this trauma and I just can’t do it. And so then I went home and I get out of my car. Mind you the day before I worked all day and it was a really difficult day that ended in chaos and just, it was difficult. I had to do things that I hate doing as a therapist. I had to break confidentiality. It is not fun. It was not fun. It was a really upsetting day. And so I was already stressed out. I already had a little bit of an emotional hangover. And so all of this is just like brewing inside of me and I’m in my head and I’m like, “I can’t take much more. I can’t take much more. I’m going to lose my shit if something happens.

Alyssa Scolari [20:18]:

And so I get home and I start making breakfast for myself because I hadn’t eaten yet. And I hear my dog throw up and I was like, “No.” I was praying that she threw up on the hardwood floor and not the carpet. And so I walk out into the living room and I see her on the stairs. Our stairs are hardwood, but we have these custom-made stair treads that are like carpets, little like traction carpets. And she’s standing on the stairs and she’s throwing up all over the stairs. And I panicked because I was like, “Dave is going to be so mad when he sees this. He’s going to freak out. I can’t handle this.” This was the last straw and I’m laughing at myself now. It’s not funny. I was really upset, but I just… Now that I’m looking back and I can see like the progression of events and how I just did not intervene when I knew I was getting to a bad place, I just kind of let it happen.

Alyssa Scolari [21:37]:

And so David heard me go, “Oh man.” And so he came downstairs and I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no. Don’t come downstairs. Don’t look at it. You’re going to get so mad.” And he’s not because I’m afraid of anger right now because I have been dealing with so much anger this week and I am an abuse survivor. I’ve dealt with angry men in the past and I am very triggered by it, but David is not an angry… he’s not like that. So I was already dissociated. I was like, “No, no, no, don’t look. You’re going to freak out. You’re going to freak out. And he saw, and he was annoyed. He was rightfully annoyed at the throw up on the stairs, because literally like throw up anywhere in the house… Most of house is hardwood. You’re going to tell me that you picked the most difficult spot to throw up in this house. Are you kidding me?

Alyssa Scolari [22:36]:

I get it. He had every right to be annoyed. He didn’t start screaming. He wasn’t stomping. He wasn’t throwing things, but I panicked. I was like, “I’ll clean it up. I’ll clean it up.” And so he actually was just like, “No, I’ll clean it up. No worries, because I don’t do throw up. I will if I have to, but it makes me really sick.” So he’s like, “I got it,” but he was annoyed. And I am… This is so embarrassing to say, but I lost my shit and I started like scream crying. I was like, “I told you I would clean it up because you’re mad and I can’t handle you being mad.” Ironically, I was the one who was mad. I was mad at him for being annoyed, for being rightfully annoyed.

Alyssa Scolari [23:30]:

So I brought this on myself and then I think he was a little like not triggered, but maybe ticked off at me because I’m yelling at him. Why am I yelling at him? I should not be yelling at him. I’m just crying and I’m like, “I told you I would clean it up so you don’t get mad.” And he was like, “Sweetie, what is going on?” Because I just like I walked in the door and fell apart. And so he was just like, “What is happening?” And I didn’t even know what was happening.

Alyssa Scolari [24:05]:

You might be asking like, “Okay, how in the hell is this a self-fulfilling prophecy?” And basically it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy because it’s a chain of events. So let’s talk about the physical therapy. I was like telling myself, “I’m going to have a panic attack. I can’t handle this. I literally can’t today. I cannot do this. This is a horrible day. I don’t know how I’m going to go on.” And then within minutes of that conversation in my head, I ended up having a panic attack. I ended up crying and yelling and freaking out and I could not get regulated. I could not get regulated. But then I also came home and I was like, “David’s going to be so mad. He’s going to be so mad that this dog threw up and I can’t handle it. If he gets mad, I’m going to freak out.” Well, he wasn’t mad. He was not even mad, but I made him mad with my strong reaction because I’m yelling at him for doing nothing wrong, nothing wrong. So I actually made him mad.

Alyssa Scolari [25:16]:

And then when I could see that he was frustrated with me, I was like, “See, I knew it. I knew it. I knew he was going to get mad. I knew this was going to happen. I can’t handle this. I’m running away.” It was like truly I am running away moment. Like I need to get on a plane and I need to go on an island because I am not doing well right now. So it was a catastrophe for me, but I also talked myself into a catastrophe.

Alyssa Scolari [25:48]:

Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying that mental health is as simple as that. I am not saying that we can talk ourselves out of depression or panic attacks or trauma responses because we cannot. And if you have been listening to this podcast for a long time, you know that is not how I feel. But what I am saying is my morning did not have to be nearly as bad as it was if I had been able to stop myself from the self-sabotage and the self-fulfilling prophecy, because I am the one with my train of thoughts that induced my own panic attack because I didn’t intervene. I am the one that caused David to feel angry because here I am yelling at him because he got a little bit annoyed at the dog. He wasn’t mad at me. He was a little annoyed at the throw up, understandably so. I did that. I sabotaged myself by saying, “I can’t handle this. I am at the end of my rope. This isn’t going to work out for me today.”

Alyssa Scolari [27:01]:

Well, guess what? I still had a full day ahead of me. I still had to work. I had things I had to do. I had to go grocery shopping. I had to make doctor’s appointments. So the more I told myself “I can’t,” the worse I made myself feel because the truth of the matter is that it’s not like I could have taken the day off and not done anything. I mean, I guess I could have, but I wasn’t planning on it.

Alyssa Scolari [27:28]:

And so me just saying, “I can’t do this, I can’t do this, I can’t do this,” was setting myself up so that I literally couldn’t do it. If I had changed that dialogue and I had said to myself, “This is horribly unpleasant. This is horrible. I was triggered at work last night. I had a hard day at work. I had to do things as a therapist that I really don’t like doing. I had a really hard morning at physical therapy and now my dog is throwing up. It’s just not my week, but I am making it and I have made it. I’ve still been able to show up for my clients and be the best therapist I can be. I’ve still been able to feed myself. I’ve still been able to drink water. I’ve still been able to be present with my dogs.” After the horrible week I’ve had, it wouldn’t have been so bad if I could have talked to myself a little bit differently.

Alyssa Scolari [28:25]:

And then with David, right? He’s going to be mad. He’s going to be mad. He’s going to be mad. I talked myself into that reality because if I had just said, “Okay, I’m feeling triggered right now. David is not the enemy. He is not the enemy. And he’s going to see this throw up and he is going to be annoyed. And that is going to be okay. He is allowed to be annoyed. He is allowed to have his emotions. His annoyance doesn’t mean that I’m in danger. He is a safe person.” I can bet you that I would not have had an absolute breakdown in that moment. I can bet you that things would’ve turned out differently. So I do this. Now, I noticed it right after the fact. I was in the middle of crying and I was like, “What am I doing?”

Alyssa Scolari [29:09]:

I literally just talked myself into this breakdown with all the can’ts and talking myself into like, “David’s mad. He’s going to hate me.” I was like, “Oh my God, he’s not going to want to be married to me anymore.” Where did that even come from? The dog threw up. How did I go from the dog throwing up to David is divorcing me? I laugh about it now because you can see how the logic just isn’t quite adding up. But when we are in the moment, there’s no room for logic in our minds, but we have to make space for the logic. Because when we talk ourselves into something and when we talk about how we already know something is going to be horrible, we already know that we aren’t going to be able to handle something, sometimes we manifest that reality.

Alyssa Scolari [30:03]:

Listen, that’s not to say that sometimes we truly can’t handle stuff because sometimes that is the case. Sometimes I look at my schedule and I go, “Nope, not today. Today I need to take care of myself.” And that’s okay. That’s not necessarily self-sabotage. That’s self-care. It’s really hard to find that middle or that middle ground. What is self-care? What is self-sabotage? But I think you have to look at it from a non-emotionally dysregulated state. So from a state of more emotional regulation. If I am emotionally regulated and I am looking at my schedule today, and I’m saying, “Nope, can’t do this. Can’t do this today. I am calling out of work.” Or, “You know what, I know I have this activity and I can’t go because I have just had too much going on and I really need to take care of myself.” Perhaps that is self-care, perhaps that is self-care.

Alyssa Scolari [30:59]:

But if we’re looking at an event that we have to go to, or we’re looking at our schedules for the day and we’re filled with almost like… I guess it would be like emotional dysregulation. So much anxiety, so much dread and all these racing thoughts of, “I can’t, I can’t. It’s going to be horrible. It’s going to be horrible. What are people going to think of me? I don’t know what to wear. I can’t trust myself. I’m not going to have any for friends.” That’s when it’s like, okay, we need to really look at this here and I need to get myself regulated before I can make any decisions, before I have any interactions with somebody so that I don’t risk self-sabotaging.

Alyssa Scolari [31:38]:

People do this in relationships all the time, where sometimes we are so afraid. I do this with David. I don’t necessarily do it as much anymore, but when I was first with David in my earlier years of really working on my trauma recovery, I was so afraid of David just being so angry. And he’s not an angry guy. Anybody who knows Dave, knows he is not an angry guy, but what I would do is I would subconsciously push his buttons and push his buttons and poke and prod. And then when he would get angry, I would be like, “See, you’re angry.” Well, yes, yes, of course. Now it took me a little while to realize I was doing that and sometimes I would do that with having to go out. “I’m going to be really anxious about this. I don’t know if I can go. I’m going to be really anxious. I’m going to be really anxious.” And then the day of the event gets here and I’m like, “See, I’m anxious. I can’t go. I can’t do it.”

Alyssa Scolari [32:38]:

Well, yes, of course I am because I’ve been literally telling myself to be anxious about this for days. I have been telling myself that my partner is not safe. I have been telling myself that I hate my job.” These are examples. I actually don’t hate my job, but these are just examples of things that you might be telling yourself that could be self-sabotage.

Alyssa Scolari [33:05]:

Now, listen, this might sound a little bit like a mindset is everything mentality. And I don’t fully agree with that. Yes, it is about mindset, but it is also about self-awareness, being aware of what you are doing and being able to see things from an objective space. So yeah, my husband and I just got into this fight or my partner and I just got into this fight. How did we get there? How did we get there? Okay. Well, I can see that last week in therapy, I processed how when I was younger my mother was really, really angry and my mother was abusive. And then I’d been thinking about it all week and I noticed that I had been pushing my partner’s buttons. And then all of a sudden my partner became really angry and really annoyed. And therefore I confirmed my worst fear. I created a self-fulfilling prophecy. I sabotaged my relationship.

Alyssa Scolari [34:12]:

Hopefully this is making sense, and hopefully this is something that you can take and say, “What am I doing? Am I doing this? How am I doing this? How is this showing up in my life?” Because self-sabotage can show up in all of our lives, because for people who have experienced some type of trauma, we are familiar with things not going well. Trauma is familiar to our brains. So sometimes our brains are actively seeking out trauma. And so we look for ways in which perhaps our partners are unsafe or our friends are unsafe or our workplaces are unsafe. Sometimes we can do this when we have friends. Let’s say you have a really, really a good friend, but you need help one day and you reach out to a friend and that friend can’t answer. And that friend’s like, “Hey, look, I’ve had a really, really bad day. I really can’t talk. I love you, but let’s catch up another time.”

Alyssa Scolari [35:16]:

Sometimes we go into this head space of like, “Ah, this person sucks. They’re not a good friend. They’re never there for me. I don’t know what I’m doing talking to them.” And we kind of negate all the good things about them. All we can see is the bad. And then before we know it, we’re pulling away from the friendship, we’re closed off all because we have told ourselves that this person is not a good friend based on being triggered. That is self-sabotage. You are distancing yourself from a person because they made you feel some type of what way that is related to trauma. Everybody who makes us feel some type of way that is related to our trauma, isn’t necessarily bad or toxic. Sometimes we feel this kind of way because we have lessons to learn, because we are still so deeply wounded from abandonment and want to hate people and push them away if they can’t show up for us.

Alyssa Scolari [36:23]:

And so we tell ourselves, “Oh, I’m so alone. I don’t have any friends. I’m such a burden. Nobody wants to be there for me.” But in reality, that’s not true. That’s our abandonment stuff coming up. And we are self-sabotaging by saying that we are alone in this world. When we say we are alone, then we make ourselves alone because we close ourselves off from the rest of the world.

Alyssa Scolari [36:50]:

All of these things I have done in my life, and I have had to work extra hard to make sure that I do not self-sabotage and that I do not complete these self-fulfilling prophecies. Here is what helps me the most. And that is becoming my own detective. When I notice that I am really starting to self-sabotage or when I’m really dysregulated and have a feeling about somebody, a partner, a friend, a colleague that is like bringing up my trauma. I will number one, if I can, wait to make any decisions that are going to affect my career, my financial stability, my relationships with other people, things like that. Always wait to make any decisions.

Alyssa Scolari [37:50]:

But most importantly, most importantly, you have got to look at the facts. So let’s take my day yesterday or a few days ago where I came home and I was distraught after a hard day at work, after pelvic floor physical therapy, after the dog throwing up, after being so tired, being withdrawn from my Klonopin that I’m still struggling with. Although I’m doing much better, as an aside, it is so good to be completely off that medication. I am sleeping better, but it’s just like the emotional component of the withdrawal is always so bad for me and takes a few weeks. So I am doing well, but let’s take all of that whole day as an example. What is the evidence that I had that I was overtaxed, that I could not go on with my day?

Alyssa Scolari [38:52]:

Well, I did have some evidence. I was very, very tired. I wasn’t feeling great. I was feeling a little panicky in my chest, but what was the evidence that I simply could not go on? Where is the evidence that I could not get myself into a state of regulation so that I can move on with my day? Where was my evidence? Where is my evidence that my husband is a big, mean, scary man who’s going to freak out and punch a hole on the wall if he sees that the dog threw up? Where is my evidence? And truthfully, I didn’t have any. I didn’t have any evidence because the fact of the matter is that I had a really easy day afterwards. Yes, I still had to work. Yes, I had to do some grocery shopping, but it was nothing that I felt like I truly couldn’t do, or I didn’t want to do. I wanted to go to work. I love work. Work is a really big…

Alyssa Scolari [39:52]:

Listen. Of course, sometimes my job can be stressful, but I knew the kind of day that I was going to have with work. And I knew it was going to be an easy-breezy day. So there was really no evidence that I could not move on with my day. I had no evidence that my husband is a big, mean and scary man. He’s never gotten violent. He is not a violent person even when he is at his angriest. I’ve seen him angry before. I know the extent of his anger. I have zero evidence to show that he is anything less than a compassionate and supportive husband.

Alyssa Scolari [40:30]:

I have zero evidence to show on days where I maybe have an interaction with a friend and some of my trauma stuff is brought up. I don’t really have a whole lot of evidence to show that this person is no good for me, because I feel hurt in this moment. And where’s the evidence that this person had a malicious intent? Or where’s the evidence that this person… Did this person really want to be mean to me? Does this person not care? Or did this person set a boundary with me?

Alyssa Scolari [41:02]:

Those are things that I think I used to struggle with probably several years ago when it comes to friendship stuff, not so much anymore. And I’m really proud of myself for this because I’ve been such a good detective. Instead of feeling like I’m at the mercy of my emotions, I’m like, “Okay, I can see what I’m feeling. I’m going to put those emotions in a box right now and I’m going to put on my detective hat.” This person told me that they can’t be there for me right now. So what does that mean? Does that mean that this person is malicious? Does that mean that this person doesn’t care about me? Or is it possible that this person is having a really, really bad day and just simply cannot show up for me? And is that okay in friendships?

Alyssa Scolari [41:46]:

And I was really able to do that. Like my detective work where I’m looking at the evidence like, “Okay, what has this friendship looked like in the past? Has this person been able to show up for me in the past? Is this person a good friend? Do I feel safe and secure around this person?” And if all the answers to that are yes, then it’s likely that there is no need to let your brain jump to the conclusion that, “Oh, I have to end this friendship. I’m so alone. I’m a burden to people.” So that is the best way to go about this, is to give yourself space to be your own detective.

Alyssa Scolari [42:23]:

Think about times in your life where you may have been self-sabotaging and be your own detective. What is the evidence I have to support my beliefs? My beliefs that I can’t get through the day, my beliefs that my partner is maybe a bad person, or my beliefs that my partner doesn’t love me. Is that based in reality or is that based on trauma? What are my beliefs and what is the evidence I have to support this belief right now that I’m alone in the world and don’t have any friends? That is the most helpful thing.

Alyssa Scolari [42:58]:

Now I will say this. It is really, really hard to do that while you’re still in a state of extreme dysregulation. So if you are extremely emotional, do not, do not try to look for evidence because honestly, all the evidence that you look for, you’re not even going to like give it any kind of weight because your brain in that moment is going to want to believe what it wants to believe. So before you become your own detective, you’ve got to get yourself regulated. And that might mean in taking some time, that might mean what I needed to do is I needed to put my phone away. I needed to put my computer away and I took a hot shower. And I allowed myself some time to calm down because I was so ramped up and I was so ready for an argument or a panic attack or whatever was going to happen. So I put everything away and I took a hot shower.

Alyssa Scolari [43:53]:

You might need to take a hot shower. You might take a bath. You might need to go for a walk. You might need to just sit down and read a book. You might need to have a cup of hot tea or go out and grab a cup of coffee. Whatever helps you get some space so that you can get a little bit more regulated is going to keep you from self-sabotaging.

Alyssa Scolari [44:19]:

I hope that this was helpful because we all do it. We all do it so much. And you know what? We even do it with our therapists sometimes. Sometimes our therapists will give us tools and tips and tricks and evidence to support… All the evidence in the world to support the reality that we live in. And sometimes we can still take all of that and be like, “No, no, you’re wrong. You’re wrong,” to the therapist. Or, “Oh, well, I tried these skills. I tried them. They didn’t work for me.” Did we try them? How often did we try them? Did we try them once and never again and then write them off because it was too hard? All of these things are just self-sabotaging.

Alyssa Scolari [45:09]:

It’s not that we’re difficult. It’s just that we are self-sabotaging because sometimes we’re afraid to heal. Sometimes we don’t know who we are without our pain and our panic attacks and our anger. It’s hard to let go of anger. It’s hard to let go of anxiety when it’s who we in our whole lives, but ultimately doing so paves the way for healing, a level of healing which is absolutely worth it. I can promise you that.

Alyssa Scolari [45:47]:

I hope that this was helpful. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns, feel free to find me on Instagram. We can chat. I look forward to seeing you next week. I am holding you in the light, take extra good care of yourselves and don’t self-sabotage.

Alyssa Scolari [46:11]:

Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram we are @lightaftertrauma, and on Twitter it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to patreon.com/lightaftertrauma to support our show. We are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over. Again, that’s patreon.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you and we appreciate your support.

Alyssa Scolari [46:48]:

[singing].

The post Episode 90: Self Sabotage appeared first on Light After Trauma.

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