Episode 52: Part 1: Holding Space for All of the Feelings with Drew Assini
Episode 52: Part 1: Holding Space for All of the Feelings with Drew Assini
The spiritual friend and guide that we know and love, Drew Assini, is back with a two-part episode! During his last appearance on the podcast, Drew shared about his journey from addiction to world traveler and spiritual guide. On this week’s episode, Drew and Alyssa dive deep into the feelings that are coming up for him as he finds himself back in his home state. You’ll love this candid conversation about the importance of holding space for all of the trauma-related emotions and doing so can be incredibly beneficial for the healing and recovery process.
Drew’s website: www.helpingfolksremember.org
Drew’s Instagram: @helpingfolksremember
Alyssa Scolari [00:23]:
Hello, friends. How are we doing today? Welcome back, you know what time it is. This is the Light After Trauma podcast, I am your host, Alyssa Scolari. Welcome to another episode. We have a special guest with us who has been on the podcast before, you all love him, I love him, he is the greatest. It is Drew Assini. He was on one of the earlier episodes. We talked about, I believe the title was remembering what we seem to have forgotten, which is… It’s an awesome episode. If you haven’t listened to it, make sure you go check it out and he’s back because why wouldn’t we have him back? He is amazing. So like I was saying, we are catching up with Drew, I guess it’s maybe been six or seven months since we recorded the episode. And the last time we talked with him, he was in Thailand, right? You were, I’m pretty sure.
Drew Assini [01:30]:
I think so.
Alyssa Scolari [01:33]:
He was somewhere. Pretty sure it was Thailand, and we talked about a lot of good stuff. So in terms of what we’re talking about today, we don’t have a specific plan because that’s just how we roll. When guests sign up for once something on the podcast, there’s always a little note where. It’s like, please share anything that you feel will help prepare for our meeting. And the one thing that Drew shared was three words, buckle your seatbelt, and I have done so, and I am ready. So we have with us guide, facilitator, fellow traveler on this wild ride called Life Drew Assini. Hello.
Drew Assini [02:24]:
Alyssa Scolari [02:26]:
Drew Assini [02:28]:
Yeah. Thanks. It’s an honor.
Alyssa Scolari [02:30]:
So you’re in Jersey now.
Drew Assini [02:35]:
Yes. I think the last time we spoke, I was in Thailand and then I spent about the last six months in Nashville, Tennessee, Music city, USA.
Alyssa Scolari [02:46]:
That’s right. I saw on Facebook that you were in Nashville, which is actually one of my favorite places to be. What made your decision to go from Thailand to Nashville?
Drew Assini [03:02]:
So I connected with some folks there in Nashville who were doing, I want to call it more like healing than counseling or treatment, but it was a treatment organization that had multiple levels of care. But the focus was on a much broader holistic and comprehensive approach to healing and working at the root level, and also working experientially as much as just a talk therapy. So I don’t know. I’ve struggled with what the heck I am, or who I am. You know what my role is. And I stepped out of the formal clinical counseling space, but then this was an opportunity to step back in, but to remain true to how I’m understanding healing, and awakening and be able to work. Yeah, to be able to work on at that Fringer at that connection, and it was really cool.
Alyssa Scolari [03:58]:
Yeah, because I know when we talked last time on the episode we did a couple of months ago, you were actually just getting ready to let your license expire, your license to be a clinician. But in a way you have become an expert on things that are different types of healing I think, rather than your traditional talk therapy?
Drew Assini [04:27]:
Oh, yeah. I’m always tentative with that expert word. Because as we think we know stuff, we get a little weird but yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [04:37]:
Right. Not in the sense that you’re all like, “Oh, I’m Drew and I know everything about holistic healing.” Not that type of expert, but this is just your wheelhouse-
Drew Assini [04:49]:
Okay, yeah. That feels good.
Alyssa Scolari [04:51]:
In all the years that I’ve known you, it just feels this is where you thrive. I think you fit into the healing world and the healing process, but not into the clinician. Like that may be just isn’t your jive. You go where life takes you.
Drew Assini [05:20]:
Yeah. which is at times dutiful, and freedom, and at other times completely terrifying and you don’t know what’s next.
Alyssa Scolari [05:30]:
Do you get terrified because you… I’m just going to add a little side note here. So I talked to my therapist about you and the work that you do. But just for the listeners out there, there was like one time, and I want to say it was maybe a month or two after we recorded the first podcast. That I reached out to Drew and I asked him a question about some shit that I was dealing with, with one of my clients that I was bugging out about. And one of the things that he said to me, that honestly it was really I think life-changing for me, was to don’t get lost in the chaos. And I think that’s a perfect… That is who you are. You are somebody who I think exists and brings so much healing just by being, but you do not get lost in the chaos of the world and other people. I don’t know, does it feel like that for you?
Drew Assini [06:35]:
Alyssa Scolari [06:35]:
Drew Assini [06:37]:
Drew Assini [06:38]:
All right. How does it feel for you? Because when you said that to me, and there were a couple of other things that you said to me, it hit me really, really hard. And it has truly fundamentally changed the way that I… Some of the ways that I operate in my practice, I have much less stress, I’m much more laid back, and just exactly what you said, I don’t get lost in the chaos. I stand outside of it, or even if there is a hurricane. If I am dealing with a case where there feels like a hurricane or even a hurricane in my own life, I try to step into the eye of that hurricane. Where everything is calm and peaceful. Which I don’t know if I would have done if you didn’t really give me that reality check of, you’re in the chaos right now come back down. I don’t even know if you remember us having a conversation about that?
Drew Assini [07:35]:
Yeah, I remember us connecting to chatting. Yeah, that’s beautiful. That’s awesome, babe.
Alyssa Scolari [07:39]:
It truly was altering for me on a personal and professional level. But you don’t see yourself like that, you feel like you’re in the chaos.
Drew Assini [07:51]:
I think it’s hard to see ourselves, I guess, the way other people see us sometimes. And yeah, there’s definitely periods of time where I have less internal noise, and less stories and dramas and Drew flavored shenanigans. And then there’s other times, we’re sort of kind of, right? Now actually, as I’m back home visiting family members in New Jersey, there’s just a lot more invitations to chaos and drama that show up. I feel they’re always there, it’s just do we have the calm, or the perspective, or the discipline to be able to resist what feels like a tasty little morsel, but really turns into a whole shit show. And that just comes with some pain and some wisdom, it’s an experience too.
Alyssa Scolari [08:49]:
It’s like trial and error type of shit.
Drew Assini [08:52]:
Alyssa Scolari [08:56]:
So how is it for you, and if I’m asking too much, of course, tell me to back off, but what does-
Drew Assini [09:04]:
No, we good.
Alyssa Scolari [09:05]:
… Feel like for you to be traveling and out and about on your own and having all of these incredible experiences. But is going home like walking back in, like are there lots of flashbacks? What is your experience being back home?
Drew Assini [09:25]:
It’s weird. I feel to a certain degree I stepped out of my immediate family system a couple of years back. And that was terrifying, and I had a million reasons why I shouldn’t, but it was just like my heart and my gut were moving and I went with it. And so then to come back and spend a little bit of time here, and buy a little bit I mean nine days. Like that’s it.
Alyssa Scolari [09:51]:
Oh, you’re only there for nine days?
Drew Assini [09:53]:
Yeah. The last time I came home was for five days and now this time it’s nine, we’ll see how that works. Because I’m just not the same dude, or the same being, or the same whatever, that used to fit into this family system into this dynamic. And so now I’m home and I get to visit with my mom, and my dad, and my sister, and her family, and the little nuggets, niece and nephews. But it’s weird because the system has re-regulated a little bit with me not as a main character. It’s like they rewrote the story and I’m no longer a starring role, which comes with a variety of feelings. Now it’s a little sad but I mean, it’s also what I’ve come to discover is, I’ll take the peace and the ease that I have as whatever I am on a regular basis over the concessions that I was making on a regular basis to be a part of a family system where I couldn’t show up fully. So some are with it, but there’s feelings there.
Alyssa Scolari [11:06]:
Yeah. And this is honestly coming off the heels of, although I guess it’s not even coming off the heels. But after an interaction with some of my own family members a while back, this is resonating with me very, very, very deeply. As you’re speaking, I’m like I got that feeling going in my gut, I’m like, “Oh shit I know exactly what he’s talking about.” But I think it’s important. I actually think this is a really, really painful, but important thing to talk about when it comes to, especially complex PTSD and interactions with family members.
Alyssa Scolari [11:47]:
So what I hear you saying, and correct me if I’m wrong, I don’t know if I’m projecting. But it’s like your not that same guy that fit into that role to be able to continue the dysfunctional system. You’ve changed. And when you changed, you stepped away. You removed yourself from the dysfunction. So the whole system, the systems either it’s going to change for the worst, for the better, differently, but you’re not in it. And what I hear is that your system, the family system has shifted, so that you’re not as much a part of it. Which is, I think the situation for a lot of people is that. Am I understanding that correctly?
Drew Assini [12:33]:
Yeah, like I said.
Alyssa Scolari [12:35]:
I feel that way so strongly with a lot of my family members where now that I have changed so much, and I’m no longer perpetuating the dysfunction. I’ve removed myself from the dysfunction, I remove myself from the gossip, the this, the that, the he said, she said drama, et cetera. When I come back and I experience when I’m in a setting with my family, I’m very clearly written out. Which is sad, it’s very, very sad. But I love what you said about the peace that I get from not being a part of that on a daily basis, I will choose that over the discomfort I get from a temporary interaction in which it’s very, very obvious to me that I don’t belong.
Drew Assini [13:33]:
Yeah. It feels I now get to star in a different TV show, and this one’s cooler, or this one feels more like the role or the character I would like to play. Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [13:45]:
How are you dealing with the… Because it is better, but it still brings up terrible feelings. How do you deal with that? Because I struggle with that too. There are things that I have witnessed in the last couple of months and I’m just like, “Yeah, no. No, this clearly is not my path anymore.”
Drew Assini [14:12]:
Yeah. I think in general healing has added it’s core, or could have added it’s core reworking of the relationship with feelings in general. So the last six months in Nashville I was working with folks, and at a core of that work was like, listen, we have to normalize all the feelings, and we got to get used to feeling all of them. Because as long as we play the game of I want these feelings, but not those feelings, we’re at the mercy of a lot of the stories we make up around certain feelings or certain situations. So I think through mindfulness and meditation and yoga and community, and a lot of the things that are a part of my regular experience now, a wider variety of emotions are okay. And so then I’m able to step into different situations or more challenging situations, and the feelings that come with that. And it’s never one feeling, it’s a weird combo, like the image-
Alyssa Scolari [15:25]:
Caught in the web.
Drew Assini [15:28]:
… Well, the thing I’m seeing is, you know the movie Inside Out?
Alyssa Scolari [15:31]:
Drew Assini [15:33]:
So in the beginning of that movie, there’s all the different colored emotions. But by the end, they’re having multiple colors in one memory. So it’s like this-
Alyssa Scolari [15:42]:
Right. The marbles rise to the marbles, [crosstalk 00:15:46] a memory. And by the end, you have more marbles that are blended, right?
Drew Assini [15:51]:
Alyssa Scolari [15:52]:
… Dual colors, triple colors, then you have marbles that are just solid.
Drew Assini [15:58]:
Yes. And so as we mature, as we develop, ideally we’re having experiences that we’re able to acknowledge have multiple facets to it, multiple feelings to it. And so today at 40, versus me at 30, versus me at 20, versus prior versions of me, I’m more cool or more okay with a wider variety of those combinations and those slavers. And that then… The way I understand it, that directly translates into my ability to have peace in the present with whatever might show up.
Alyssa Scolari [16:34]:
Yes, because you’re allowing space for all of it to it.
Drew Assini [16:37]:
Alyssa Scolari [16:37]:
That’s what I hear, right? Is that I’m making space for by not just saying, well, this is all good, this is all bad, or this is all… If we’re going with the inside out, we’re going to make this marble blokes, this is all just sadness. It’s no, there’s… It’s very complex, hence complex trauma. It’s very complex, then there’s space for all of it. And I think that’s when you allow yourself to have space for all of it, is what helps the most with managing it. I don’t know, am I making sense? I’m trying to think of an example-
Drew Assini [17:18]:
Yeah. And when we say, oh yeah, and when we say it, we mean life and all of the life happenings.
Alyssa Scolari [17:28]:
All the life, happenings. And I think it especially rings true for any trauma survivors who struggle with family stuff. It’s like, “Well, my family has X, Y, and Z toxic trait, and they did X, Y, and Z.” And people struggle over like, “I can’t just cut them off and say that they’re dead to me.” And it’s like, no, you don’t have to do that. It’s okay for all of that to exist.
Drew Assini [17:55]:
Look, I worked with folks recently where it’s like, “Okay, my specific parent is responsible for some of the trauma for some of the abuse, but also I love him.” And it’s how to both of those things show up. That’s hard. Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari [18:14]:
That’s where it gets [bleep] complex. It’s like, yes, I have a parent, or this family member, or this person who was directly responsible for, even like for me, eating disordered stuff. I know part of what contributed to my eating disorder was just watching every single person in my family talk about how fat they were, talk about how disgusted they were with themselves beyond diet, after diet, after diet. So I know that part of where my eat part of it, where my eating disorder stuff comes from is directly related to some of my family members. But damn, I still love them. That’s where it’s so hard.
Drew Assini [19:03]:
And can that just be okay? Do we have to do something about that, or can that be something that we’re able to sit with and notice, and feel into? And yeah, it’s hard. That space… I mean, that’ also the space where, beautiful changes and transformations happen.
Alyssa Scolari [19:29]:
That is the space where the magic happens so to speak. That’s the space that I think a lot of people, most people have a lot of trouble. Most people are like, well, I know my dad did this, but I still love him, but I can’t… And people are tormented by it. They are tormented by having the black and white thinking, is what torments us. It’s like, well, I still love him, but he did all this stuff to me, but I still love him. And so many hours of torture and torment and pain and suffering, I think could be saved if we were able to tolerate space for all of it, and let it all be true, and let it all be okay.
Drew Assini [20:14]:
Yeah. And I think it’s related. It’s important to acknowledge that part of the brain and the nervous system, the threat assessment system, whatever you want to call it, is all about safe or not safe, danger, not dangerous. So there’s this push towards categories and defining that’s a part of us that actually probably saves our [bleep] on a lot of situations. But if we get a little bit deeper into our healing process and we start to see what’s actually present within us, there’s another faculty. There’s another paintbrush in the set that can allow us to just be with something and feel, as opposed to name and categorize, trying to make the rights and wrongs. There’s a more spacious, softer seeing that can become available, which is really instrumental in and I would offer into healing, and changing, and awakening, and letting stuff go and stepping into something new.
Alyssa Scolari [21:14]:
Yeah. I think you make a good point that our brains really, we truly are wired at times to see things in black and white, safer not safe, in danger not in danger. So it’s having to separate out like, is there or there are going to be sometimes for the black and white thinking is necessary, but I think in this situation it can be prolonging our suffering.
Drew Assini [21:42]:
Alyssa Scolari [21:45]:
So what day are you on being at home?
Drew Assini [21:49]:
I just spent the weekend. I don’t know, four maybe.
Alyssa Scolari [21:53]:
Okay. So where are you headed after this?
Drew Assini [21:58]:
So after this, next stop is Guatemala. I’m going to go hang out in, I think it’s central Guatemala. There’s a really cool lake and culture and some towns around the lake there, like a Teton. Yeah, so I’ll go hang out there next.
Alyssa Scolari [22:13]:
How long will you be there for?
Drew Assini [22:14]:
I don’t know. I bought a one way ticket and I’m committed for like a month. And then, yeah. I don’t know, let’s see.
Alyssa Scolari [22:25]:
Have you ever been to Guatemala before?
Drew Assini [22:28]:
Alyssa Scolari [22:30]:
All right. I’ve got to ask you this. How do you decide where you’re going next? Do you do one of those maps dartboard, boom, wherever the dart lands?
Drew Assini [22:41]:
No. So when I was in Thailand, the second half of my time in Thailand I was staying on an island, that had a spiritual vibe to it, or at least the one side of the island did. And so when Thailand was doing weird stuff, as far as what would happen with Corona and people staying people going, then I started looking for other spots. And then this was one of those places on the inter webs that people said had a similar vibe to where I was in Thailand, so yeah.
Drew Assini [23:18]:
I prefer personally to live in places where the wavelength isn’t the 2021 modern capitalist, materialist American flavor. So here in places like this and it can get a little lofty. Because some people go to spirituality is like escapism and the Buddhism and all that. But for the most part, there’s a little bit of a different wavelength that’s available as a baseline, which I find more agreeable for just my own daily experience, so yeah. I mean I’m from Jersey, so there’s a certain stink and [bleep] that I don’t know that I’ll ever see. But I’ll have to stay in Jersey.
Alyssa Scolari [24:09]:
Yeah. And I mean, you haven’t. You’ve been traveling around for, how many years has it been now?
Drew Assini [24:16]:
A couple of years. I went out to Oregon and taught for a little bit and then that turned into the-
Alyssa Scolari [24:21]:
Drew Assini [24:22]:
… RV and the drive about stuff. And then that led to Thailand for a bit, and then to Nashville, and now to Guatemala so.
Alyssa Scolari [24:33]:
Now when you, because you said this earlier and I want to come back to it. I can’t remember exactly what you said, but almost like I’m struggling with where I fit into the whole healing thing. Can you expand more on that? Is there some residual feelings about letting your license expire and stuff like that?
Drew Assini [25:01]:
Well, no. So I let my letters go when I started to drive about and then went to Thailand. Because it felt like the clinical counselor therapist paradigm is cool and is totally the exact lane or approach for a lot of folks. And I think that there’s going to be a lot of people after this summer of fun ends, and everyone gets back in touch with their Corona arisen issues. There’s going to be a huge, huge demand for counseling and therapy and I think that’s beautiful, folks should feel super comfortable leaning into that. For me personally, the way I move and how I understand stuff, I’m super grateful that I learned the CBT counseling clinical approach. I feel like that’s a tool in my belt, let’s say bigger than that, but just my understanding is maybe different or I guess I would say like wider, to include perspectives that are not just mental health America, 2021.
Alyssa Scolari [26:11]:
Yeah. I think your spectrum of healing is wider than what mainstream American counseling would even allow for. There are some types of, I think it sounds like lots of the types of healing that you feel the most connected to, or the most aligned with, is more based on Eastern philosophies.
Drew Assini [26:37]:
That would be one way to say it. The further… The more this opens up, the perspective isn’t, let’s see how do we say this. Respective that I feel I’m moving from, isn’t limited to any culture at any time in place. It’s just a certain way of seeing ourselves and understanding the world and moving in it. But yeah, I definitely got introduced to this as much through Eastern spirituality, and wisdom traditions, and native traditions, and practices as anything else. Yeah, totally.
Alyssa Scolari [27:13]:
And I love that. Because I often feel, I think as a therapist, having to abide by. And I don’t just abide by certain rules because it’s what I’m supposed to. For the listeners out there, there are certain things I have to abide by because I could lose my license. But I am very much interested in the broader spectrum of healing that other countries are incorporating and using. And I think it is very frustrating to be a clinician in this country. I don’t know about other countries, but it can be frustrating because we’re very limited in what we can offer due to ethical boundaries, and risks, and liabilities, and all that stuff that we have a whole [bleep] smorgasbord of things we can’t do or say. And if we sneeze the wrong way, we could be in trouble.
Drew Assini [28:08]:
Which I think is super cool, and appropriate, and helpful for a particular approach to health, and wellbeing, and treating symptoms, and having a functioning life. So like that stuff’s cool, but I’ve come to my own understanding where it’s like, “Oh, normal in our society, is really like symptom management and it’s not healthy.” And so I’m not interested in playing a certain role according to a bunch of imposed limits and restrictions, to help people just function better in society that I think is lost in all the sideways. I would rather help beings awaken from their own BS and their own stories and their own traumas, and then learn how to honor and walk in a way that honors themselves, and their own truth, or their heart. And that’s yeah. That’s not usually on the disclosure statement or the consent statement when you first start, you’re eight sessions of insurance paid for counseling.
Alyssa Scolari [29:14]:
Right. A lot of it is symptom management you are much interested in the deeper fullest aspect of the human experience that you can get your hands on.
Drew Assini [29:26]:
Right. It feels more… I used the word healing a lot because I feel that’s close to what we do with counseling, but not always. Healing and then for me it’s also like awakening, or sometimes I’ll say spiritual awakening, but I mean, I don’t know. Sometimes I think spiritual awakenings are weird because, if we just awaken we’ll realize what we are and the words don’t matter as much. So then spiritual awakening is then people like go chase, you know what? “Oh, I need to have dreadlocks and be a hippie and not shower.” And it’s like, “No, bro, that’s not-
Alyssa Scolari [30:02]:
You got it wrong.
Drew Assini [30:04]:
Yeah, come back. So yeah, I like awakening, healing, and then I feel like my role in that is just guiding and supporting folks in their own recognition, and then their own development of an ability to move from a place that’s less chaos, a little more peace.
Alyssa Scolari [30:27]:
That’s what it is, it’s less chaos. Less chaos, more peace. And that’s something you’ve always been about. I know we haven’t talked about it on this episode, but for the listeners out there as a reminder, I met Drew when I was in grad school, and you were of part-time faculty member?
Drew Assini [30:50]:
Three-quarter time, whatever that means. I had an office and they put my name on the other wall, so I felt bored.
Alyssa Scolari [30:59]:
What the hell is a three-quarter time faculty member?
Drew Assini [31:02]:
That’s what academia does when they don’t want to pay for full.
Alyssa Scolari [31:07]:
Right. Exactly. We’re not going to give you the whole package, but we’ll make you a three-fourths of a faculty member.
Drew Assini [31:16]:
But I never would have been able to serve like that if it wasn’t for that position, because I only have my master’s degree in order to be the full-time professor. I mean, you can get an instructor gig with a master’s, but I don’t know. I also feel like super blessed that, that weird position was there, because then it allowed me to hang out in that space with those folks and gain those experiences and that wisdom.
Alyssa Scolari [31:40]:
And so many of those folks, myself included being in like the most stressful time of their lives. You get to grad school and I feel the first thing anybody does in grad school is, they try to prove how difficult it’s going to be because they try to weed out the weak ones. So they are like, “If you came here to make money, to think you’re going to get a job where you make money, drop out. If you think you’re going to coast, drop out. If you think you might get a cold in six months drop out.” It’s like the scare tactic and then you’ve got Drew. Who’s like, I have a meditation place right down the street, and we were all like, “Yeah, well let’s go find Drew.”
Drew Assini [32:29]:
Yeah. It was a challenge trying to fit into that culture.
Alyssa Scolari [32:34]:
It’s very cutthroat.
Drew Assini [32:38]:
My struggle with it is that academia, a lot of times is a lot of folks who have never actually, we’ll say worked in the real world. So they’re like folks that have been in school their whole life. So they just went to school, to go to school, to go to school, to then teach school. And I don’t know. I don’t feel like you should have to work for tips at some point in your life or… Do some actual service work for minimum wage at some point or…
Alyssa Scolari [33:06]:
Right. That actually teaches you more about the human experience than I think a lot of just researchers can.
Drew Assini [33:14]:
Alyssa Scolari [33:15]:
Not to say that researchers are not brilliant, we’ve learned so much from them, but that culture is. It’s like you work and work and work to then teach, but you don’t actually, like what you’re studying are humans, but in none of that time are you getting experience with humans.
Drew Assini [33:35]:
Yes. That’s the potential, not everybody’s like that, but there is that potential. Yeah, it’s a very like heady. It can be very heady and not a lot of heart party. I mean it’s funny because that’s what happens with trauma too, right? Is that we like go to our heads to live there, to be more safe than in the fields or the emotion?
Alyssa Scolari [33:59]:
Yeah. Even in grad school, you got to turn off your feelings, man.
Drew Assini [34:04]:
Hey, we’re going to teach you how to help people get in touch with themselves. In order to learn this though, you have to turn off your own feelings to succeed.
Alyssa Scolari [34:13]:
Cause we’re about to rip you to shreds.
Drew Assini [34:20]:
Right. It makes no sense. None.
Alyssa Scolari [34:13]:
Alrighty, I think we are going to stop there for this week. Drew and I had a pretty extensive conversation. So I thought it might be helpful to break it up into two parts similar to what I did with the Rebecca episode. So we are going to wrap up there because we change topics for next week, and next week is just as important, I love having Drew on the show. So please go check out his podcast. He actually just launched season four of the drive about podcast, or at least I believe the first half of it. So go check that out, it is the Drive About podcast, and then we will pick back up with this awesome discussion next week. Have a great week, everybody.
Alyssa Scolari [34:49]:
Thanks for listening everyone. For more information, please head over to lightaftertrauma.com, or you can also follow us on social media. On Instagram, we are @lightaftertrauma and on Twitter, it is @lightafterpod. Lastly, please head over to at patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. To support our show, we are asking for $5 a month, which is the equivalent to a cup of coffee at Starbucks. So please head on over again, that’s patrion.com/lightaftertrauma. Thank you, and we appreciate your support. [singing]