Episode 40: Equine Assisted Psychotherapy: The Healing Power of Horses with Jeanne Mahoney, LPC
Episode 40: Equine Assisted Psychotherapy: The Healing Power of Horses with Jeanne Mahoney, LPC
This week’s episode is a lively discussion about the benefits of Equine Assisted Psychotherapy (EAP) between Alyssa and Jeanne Mahoney, LPC. Jeanne is the executive director of Equine Assisted Therapy of New Jersey. Tune in to hear Jeanne share how horses have helped her heal from trauma and have even saved her life. Jeanne talks about the ways in which horses bring so much comfort and healing into our lives, especially for those of us who have a history of trauma.
Learn More About Equine Assisted Therapy of NJ
Alyssa Scolari: [00:00:23]
Welcome back everybody to another episode of the Light After Trauma podcast, a podcast by trauma survivors for trauma survivors. I am your host, Alyssa Scolari and we have here with us today. Jeanne Mahoney. This is going to be a good episode. I know I say that all the time, but we have just had some incredible guests on.
So, Jeanne has a unique skillset as she has promoted health and healing across the lifespan of all ages and types of people in many different settings. As an RN, educator, and therapist. She is a lifelong horse woman who is living her dream of being able to share with others the healing power of horses and began practicing equine assisted psychotherapy in 2006 using the EAGALA model. Jeanne has been a PATH instructor for over 15 years. She has many fortes and specializes in working with people dealing with addictions, family and couples therapy, grief and loss, veterans, and women’s issues. Hi Jeanne. Thank you for being here today.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:01:55]
Oh, I’m so excited to be here.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:01:57]
This is one of my favorite topics because I believe so much in the healing power of horses.
So I honestly, I’m honored to have you here today and very thankful for the work that you do. So. You started out as an RN.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:02:20]
Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:21]
Okay. So can you talk a little bit about the path that led you to equine therapy?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:02:29]
Yes, I can. So, where to begin?
Alyssa Scolari: [00:02:36]
It’s a loaded question.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:02:37]
It really is. I have a few stories I am going to tell you about that. I did have a lot of trauma in my life. So in childhood, I had a very traumatic childhood. By the time I was eight years old and I started rocking back and forth, like banging back and forth, and banging my feet and crying in my sleep as a young child.
And I was always obsessed with horses. My mother and father didn’t know what to do with me back then. I am 63 years old. So back then there wasn’t many therapists. Kind of weird. So, my mother had a schizophrenia sister who was in and out of Ancora (state hospital) . So she was terrified something was wrong with me.
Here I am rocking back and forth back on my feet, crying, all that. So she convinced my dad to get me a horse. When she got me the horse, the rocking stopped, the banging the feet kind of persisted, but not as much. And I stopped crying in my sleep. So right then and there, that was proof that the horses were actually helping me.
So they grounded me at a very young age.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:03:43]
That makes me want to just cry because I have a not similar, but somewhat on the same lines. I first discovered horses and I was obsessed with horses when I was maybe around like, six years old, just begged like, can we get a pony? Can we get a pony? Which I think every six-year-old right. What six year old doesn’t want a pony.
But when I was around like eight or nine years, old. My best friend at the time, her mom rode horses and I started riding with them at the farm that they go to. And then I started taking lessons and then I started to compete. And that was also around the time where I started to develop really bad symptoms, obsessive compulsive disorder.
So at that time I was washing my hands all the time. I was rubbing my skin raw and when I started riding horses, all of that stuff went away.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:04:49]
Yeah, it’s amazing.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:04:51]
So yeah, I learned that a very, you know, a young age, just like you, the healing power of horses.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:04:57]
So I got very excited about that and being the therapist in the making. I didn’t know that, but now looking back, I can see it. I invited all of my girlfriends in school who said they liked horses to come help me at this farm. So it was like the comradery, the connection, the healing power of the barn just came alive.
It was just awesome. So yeah, I got it early on how you can bring people and horses together and it makes for a very great environment.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:05:27]
A beautiful, beautiful environment for you. You didn’t immediately jump into equine assisted therapy. You became an RN first. Were you a school nurse?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:05:42]
Yeah,I was. I did a lot of different types of nursing from the ICU to the ER to school nursing. And then I worked at a detox because of my trauma. By the time I was 24 years old, I had a significant addiction and didn’t know what to do. And I had gone down some pretty dark roads and then I was driving down the road one day.
Another story here, driving down the road one day on a very busy road. And it was all the farms disappeared around where I lived. I came up from like Cherry Hill/Ashland area. So all the farms started disappearing and I’m driving down this road, thinking about suicide and darting across from me, a horse.
Like on this busy street. So I was like, Holy crap. So I pulled over, I got out and I said, he’s gonna get hit. He’s going to get hit. And I ran down and I followed him and I’m running and I was in shape and I was young girl. So I was running, even though I was pretty damn sick. Cause I think I was just coming off of a run.
And we landed up in this clearing and I just commenced to tell this horse, everything in my life, sobbing and weeping, you know, and I was just telling him everything that was going wrong in my life right now. And I said to him, you need to go home and I need to get you home or you’re going to die. And I turned around and he followed me. So right then I was just like, Oh my God. And I did. Yeah, it was amazing. And I did get him back to his owner, but the reality is, every time when I’d had these horrible situations, a horse showed up, like how coincidental is that? I don’t think so.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:26]
Right. No, not at all. That horse saved your life and that horse saved your life that day.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:07:32]
And then I landed up finding the 12 Steps. And so I landed up in recovery at 24 and ever since, so I’m 39 years clean and sober.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:07:42]
Wow. Good for you.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:07:44]
Yeah. And that was like, you know, the horses just really gave me the motivation and the grounding that I needed to survive. And then of course I learned a lot about trauma and a lot about helping people because when I got clean, There was one NA meeting a week in New Jersey That was it.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:08:05]
In all of New Jersey, right?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:08:07]
All of New Jersey, there was no basic texts. There was nothing. So I got to be able to be in the ground on all of that making. So I was involved in all of that, bring it to fruition, the basic text and all the meetings. And so my life took off in a great direction. So, I landed up working as a nurse and doing lots of things.
And then I landed up working in a drug and alcohol detox, and I had a traumatic event again, in my thirties. It might’ve been forties actually. And I landed up back in therapy and the therapist asks that I joined a women’s group. So I joined a women’s group and at the women’s group. I was training at that time, a horse, I had gotten a farm by then and all, and I was training a horse that had a lot of trauma.
So I would come into process my training of the horse with these women. And they would be on the edge of their seat waiting for my stories. I was really just being honest and saying, you know, cause I was doing a lot of internal work via the horse at the time she was very traumatized. So they would be like: “Oh my God, that reminds me of my husband.”
“Oh, that reminds me of my sister.” And they were like relating all this. And I was like, really? Wow.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:21]
So, the way the horse was behaving.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:09:23]
Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:25]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:09:26]
So then I was working at the drug and alcohol rehab and I went to the clinical director and I said, I want to bring my horses here. And she said, really, we’d love you to bring your horses here. She said, but you know, maybe you’ll want to get a certification or something.
I don’t know. So I went and got EAGALA certified.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:41]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:09:41]
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:09:43]
Wow. That is an incredible story. So it’s almost like forces have been there for you in this healing way, your whole life. And then it just led you, right? Every step you took led you right to the place where you are now.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:10:00]
Yeah. So we went in and millions of people pass through my arena. It seemed. Probably 20,000. I don’t know a lot. At…
Alyssa Scolari: [00:10:09]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:10:11]
…Seabrook house and it just started growing and just started seeing how the interaction, and this is the first time people have not been next to a horse. If you think about it, like were partners we were partners through war We were partners through discovering new lands I mean it’s been us and the horse We may have this unspoken Agreement that we’re going to work together So when people would come into the arena who never touched a horse in their lifetime they always displayed to me They absolutely did display to me a generational knowing they’ve been here before now obviously they haven’t but in their DNA and I’ve had people weeping next to horses I’ve had heroin addicts hiding in the corner and a horse go over and just stand with them Just to them and the guy or the girl would reach out and then they would open up. They would just open up. It was just amazing. I’ve really been a privileged person to see many miracles.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:12]
It really is the most miraculous thing. And I love what you say about how it’s almost just like wired in our DNA and how horses really have been with mankind womankind forever. It has always been human and horse, so it feels so natural when you’re standing next to a horse and people that haven’t done it.
It may sound silly until you are standing next to that horse face-to-face or when that horse is looking at you, which I learned this about horses recently, right? They can’t see you if you’re standing directly in front of them.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:11:50]
Well, it depends on how close you are to their face.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:11:52]
If you’re very close, right. They can’t see you.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:11:55]
Well, you’d have to be like right there where they can’t see you. They have a blind spot right here, but they can see you. They just have a blind spot right in front.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:12:03]
They have a blind spot. There’s something about their eyes that it’s just like, they know. So this past summer, obviously this last year of quarantine has been some of the most depressing times I think most of us have ever experienced and very isolating. My cousin owns a horse, my cousin competes and over the summertime, we went down to the farm and I got a chance to ride her horse. And I ended up, he didn’t really throw me off, but it was my fault. I wasn’t sitting on him correctly. So he kinda got like irritated with me and like shimmied me off and I like fell off.
And it was in that moment that I felt like we’ve never understood each other more. Like I knew what he said to me, which was: you’re not sitting on me right. And he gently shook me off. He didn’t throw me off. He was just kind of like, Hey, this doesn’t feel right. Like something’s not right. So I’m just going to get you off of me. And I felt like we spoke with one another.
It was such a surreal experience.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:13:21]
Yeah. And so, you know, when I use it in trauma, like years ago, when I started when I was six, there wasn’t words for this stuff, there wasn’t, there was a basic theory, but it is evolved in the past five to 10 years. It has really evolved like now, like I use polyvagal theory. It’s amazing. And I’ve got a established trauma treatment with the horses.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:13:46]
When you say you use polyvagal theory with equine assisted therapy, can you talk (more about that) ?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:13:51]
Absolutely. So, first of all, the process that you go through, you know, treating someone with the horses is the first thing that we do is we establish emotional safety and physical safety. So the horses are in the arena and they’re loose. They’re not on anything. I have an indoor arena and an outdoor arena or the pasture and they’re loose.
So they have choice. And the person has choice too. So we established the choice, the trust, the collaboration, the empowerment with the horse and the human first. And that is nothing on their heads. It’s just them interacting with them. We talk about the fight, flight, freeze, play dead symptoms that come up or reactions that come up in horses.
And in people too, and we teach them how to co-regulate with the horses. Either they’re borrowing from my regulation, the horses regulation, whatever, we are all co-regulating together. So there’s a little bit of mindfulness in there and being able to really just come down, just be present to each other after we build that and maybe even widen their window of tolerance, because some people are very afraid when they come, but we use that too.
Feel that. Where are you comfortable? Where are you uncomfortable? Can you step into the uncomfortable section for a bit? You can move back to the comfortable section. So we are able to go back and forth in and out of these. And then we do go into the second phase is trauma processing. So we create the traumatic event.
If that’s where we’re going. By using psychodrama techniques basically. Do a little bit of EMDR. A little bit of family systems. Gestalt. All of that is used in the arena with the clients and the horses. From that, the third phase is reintegration and reconnection. Integration really and reconnection.
And then we look for the future. What do you want in the future? What do you need to take with you to the future? What new awarenesses did you develop and new tools did you get here at equine assisted therapy that you can use in your everyday life? It is absolute flow. It’s not just. It’s powerful. The biggest challenge I have is slowing people down because they want to go.
And as you know, as a therapist, you’ve got to slow people down sometimes.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:16:22]
Yes, because if you go too fast, then you’re liable to crash and burn.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:16:27]
Absolutely. So I have to slow them down. I have to first resource, as we say, building those resources that I can call upon. If they land up in the transformational process and the trauma process, if they land up in there, I need to be able to ground them. The horses do a lot of it. The horses see it. And the horses will ground them as well.
It’s amazing to work with them because you’ll see a horse go over and absolutely ground somebody when they’re going, when they’re escalating and they can see when they’re incongruent, when their insides don’t match their outsides. Because as you know, well, maybe you don’t know, I’d like you to know, is that the horses live in a herd.
And they have this extra perception of energy so they can feel energy for…probably some of them can feel for a couple of miles out. I know they can. So, I’m five miles out and you know, they can feel it. I know where their edges are and aware they’re feeling it. And if I have somebody come in, who disassociates right in front of me and the horses react. They can see this depending on the disassociation and the degree of emotional regulation.
You see it. It’s amazing.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:17:40]
It is amazing. They pick up on energy and they pick up on…it’s more than just your affect. It’s more than just the way you’re standing. It’s like you said, if your insides don’t match your outsides, they 1000%, know. I mean, I’ve had a horse who, because of how nervous I was just wouldn’t let me get on them.
He was just like, no, you’re not ready for this. And he was right. And it took hours of us just walking together. We just walked. Left, right, forward.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:18:11]
Yeah, which really, if you think about it, he was actually stimulating both sides of your brain. You could say that’s a little EMDR-ish.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:18:18]
He was, he was, and I sat in my car after, and I just cried because I had never felt so understood and almost protected by this animal who was just like, You’re not ready to do this. You are not ready to get on this horse. You’re not ready to get on me. We’re not there yet. So let’s slow down. So when you’d say,the horses will tell you and the horses do communicate, I a thousand percent believe that. I witnessed it.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:18:46]
Yeah, it’s very powerful. The way the polyvagal theory, there’s lots of other things, but the way that works, is that social engagement piece, that often gets messed up. That can actually, you can build upon that with the horses and people will let horses in a little quicker than they will other people sometimes.
And so sometimes that can be a really nice bridge, really nice bridge. And then the fight or flight sometimes when they see that horse react in fight or flight, oh, that can bring so much to them, to somebody who is traumatized, they can identify. They’re like so identified and you know, there’s some certain times in trauma when you can’t fight or flight, you’re trapped and there’s no way out.
And so then you go and you shut down and you go into the freezer, the play dead and horses will do that in front of you too. So it’s just like this big giant mirror for trauma survivors. It’s just amazing. It’s really interesting because a lot of people into horses I’ve had trauma. They gravitate towards the horses.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:19:54]
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:19:59]
And then when you think about, I’ve been influenced by Bessel van der Kolk with The Body Keeps Score and lately just some beautiful things coming out in the world and getting somebody back into their body. So like in trauma,you’re out of your body, you like it out there. You really don’t want to come back in.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:17]
Right? You want to leave your body? Yeah.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:20:21]
I’ll have clients come in and they’re really interested in all kinds of ethereal kind of things like crystals. And I love all that stuff. Don’t get me wrong. But the reality of it is let’s come back in for a little bit let’s…
Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:33]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:20:33]
…and the horses will bring them back in, in a way that they’re willing to go to. A lot of people will do things for the sake of the horse rather than do it for the sake of themselves. And then they’ll feel their bodies and they’ll feel how it is and you can go back out of it anytime they want.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:20:53]
Right. Right. So basically what you’re saying is first they do it for the horse, but then it becomes more about being in their bodies.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:21:03]
And if it feels good if we can create a scenario where it actually feels good, they’ll go there again. the horse. That’s the hope.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:21:15]
Now for what therapy looks like in a session, are you in the arena the whole time? In and out of the arena? Like what does that look like?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:21:25]
I really, wow. I follow my client and so I really let it unfold. I’m comfortable enough with the work to allow that to happen. So I might have the horses already in the arena loose. We might go out and pick a couple of horses. Depending on the weather and the day. Sometimes I’ll do a check in, I have an office in the barn, so if there’s a need that we need to be in there, we’ll be in there.
And I do use the EMDR. I have a light in the barn and I do lots of different things, but we’ll start wherever the client is. Sometimes I’ll take a walk with a client on the edges of the farm. Sometimes they need a walk. And then we’ll go do a horse activity. So it just depends on where they’re coming from and what’s going on and what is the focus of treatment today.
So I have to make those quick decisions in the moment. There’s times when I, after I’ve built tons of relationship and lots of deposits in the bank account, I will make a withdrawal and I will gently encourage, sometimes the horses will do it for me. Cause they see it. So it’s a very intuitive kind of thing.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:41]
Yeah, very individualized.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:22:44]
Although I do groups and we certainly do do groups and I love doing groups, but
Alyssa Scolari: [00:22:50]
You don’t love doing groups or you do.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:22:52]
I do. I love doing groups. Absolutely love it. Cause there’s,horses, like I said, you can go too fast. So if your ego is not ready, it can reveal too much. So if there’s another person there, they can hide behind that person.
And it’s a little safer. So you get a rest, if you will, so you can figure it out.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:23:16]
It feels safer. Yeah. It feels safer in a group. Now, when it comes to helping with trauma, horses definitely helped with the co-regulation piece. What other ways do you see horses helping with trauma?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:23:36]
I’ll give you a story or example, if you will. (I’ll) protect the names. So I had this person who came in and a lot of trauma as a child. So mom and dad: drug addicts, alcoholics. So beautiful young woman now in her mid thirties, forties raising a family of her own, but still carrying this heavy trauma. So there was one trauma incident that she set up.
So we have things in the arena, poles and cones and barrels. And there was a car incident where she was in the car and she was left in the car in the pouring rain. While dad went into cop. So there was this abandonment feeling. We recreated that abandonment feeling right in the arena. She was in that moment.
She was in that moment. She described to me what this was, what that was, this is the steering wheel. He went in, you know, like she was able to describe everything. And then we named the horses. It was three horses with something that she needed. Something that she needed to get through this that she didn’t have.
And so she was able to name them three things that she needed, and she was able to bring the horses through. Now that was so powerful for her because she was able to resolve some things she got in her body. She was able to resolve some things that actually lifted that from her. You know, and then she still remembers it, but it doesn’t sting as much.
It’s very similar to doing EMDR, but we actually cleared out a lot of that trauma track from doing these activities. And she did some other things like some writing and some things like that. But the reality of it is it’s very, that’s why I say it’s psychodrama in many ways. It’s in the, doing in the action where you’re there and I’m saying, what do you need?
What do you need? Let me give it to you.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:25:28]
She’s able to like recreate the scenario, but this time she’s able to give herself exactly what she needs.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:25:39]
And the big girl can help the little girl,
Alyssa Scolari: [00:25:42]
She can help her inner child. Yeah.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:25:45]
And things like that. Like that’s one way, I mean, there is so many different scenarios, but just to give you a little visual of what it could be like, and that’s in the processing part.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:25:56]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:25:56]
It’s just like EMDR. It has problems. So that’s the processing part. It’s not all of it. Yeah. That’s just part of it.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:04]
Right. It’s so layered and it’s so much more than what people think it is, which is why I’m also really happy to have you on to be able to explain, well, what is this. No, it’s not just, you look at a horse and you give it a pat and say, great, I’m healed now. It’s so much different than that. It’s so much more complex than that.
Another way that stands out to me, that horses help heal trauma is by making us feel seen. I really feel that when I’m around horses, they see me. And I think so many of us who have survived trauma just have felt unseen throughout our lives.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:26:48]
Absolutely. Or and sometimes want to be unseen. Yeah.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:26:53]
Can’t hide from a horse,
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:26:55]
No, they come and find you. They do. Sometimes they do. I had this one horse, honest to God, I’m not kidding: Grief. I call her my grief horse and I will be working a group of people and someone will have just experienced a loss and this horse will go in and check in with them.
Like she’ll pick them out of the group and then go away and then go on and check in and I’ll go over to the person. I’ll say, “Hey, how are you doing like lost anybody or anything lately?” “Oh yeah. My wife just died a month ago” and I’d be like, huh? I mean, she,
Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:28]
You’re like, yep. That makes sense.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:27:30]
Yeah. Yeah. Cause she’s trying to get them congruent.
She’s trying to, you know, she’s trying, cause they look at everything as a herd and they’re trying to make their herd okay. So it’s remarkable.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:41]
It’s so remarkable. Oh my goodness. Now, are you the, I see you’re the executive director of it’s called Equine Assisted Therapy of New Jersey (https://www.equineassistedtherapyofnj.org/) .
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:27:53]
Alyssa Scolari: [00:27:55]
You founded the entire, okay.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:27:59]
Yeah, we’ve gone down many, many roads with it, but yeah. Yeah, I did. I did (found) it. And I also, I had an LLC for a little bit with another lady and actually she took that on and went on her way with it as well. So yeah, it’s been a lifelong journey. I have a farm where the nonprofit is on with the indoor arena and I live on it and it is in Salem County.
So it’s in a Mannington actually. It’s right outside of Woodstown New Jersey. So it’s Mannington New Jersey. It’s like 12 minutes from the Delaware Memorial bridge to give you an idea about where we’re at.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:28:35]
Okay. Now I’m curious, how did COVID affect this?
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:28:41]
I got busier. Like I down when COVID came, I shut everything down. It was a time for me to really revamp everything. So we had some things going on here, like Therapeutic Riding, things like that. And I actually did away with that. That wasn’t my heart anyway. It wasn’t working out very well. There’s a lot of people that do therapeutic riding around and we do not do that.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:06]
Yes, there’s a difference between Therapeutic Riding and Equine Assisted Psychotherapy.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:29:12]
We turned our barn into a professional kind of barn. I do have an occupational therapist and she also does some things. And I also have a veteran mentorship program with a vet that works here.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:29:24]
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:29:26]
So we’ve kind of just redid some things. We kept the social distancing, the masks, the temperature checks and all of that.
While we did things, it was a little bit easier because you’re outside. So you can keep that six foot distance and things like that. But there were times when we shut down entirely. Yeah, so we just kind of rode the wave. And I was doing tele-health for a while, just as an LPC, you know, just as a Licensed Professional Counselor, but always thinking we’ll open up soon.
And so we’ve been very busy lately. I’m struggling, keeping up, but in a fun way now, because the weather’s getting nicer and the colder weather you do it, but it’s not as fun.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:04]
It’s not as fun. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:30:08]
Doing some workshops Saturdays once a month and, and seeing clients during the week. And yeah, it’s been going well and going to build a little bit more up to, you know, I’m getting invigorated by the nice weather.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:30:23]
Yes. Everything that you’re saying just sounds so. The whole conversation just feels so invigorating: your passion for it and your love for it is very, very palpable. And it’s exciting. And it’s exciting that you just keep building and you’re just creating this very, very like healing environment for clients.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:30:45]
I really just got to do that. I retired from the VA in 2019. So I’ve been, that’s when my building really started. I mean, I’ve been doing it all along. I’ve always had like three jobs, four jobs, but now I have this job, so it’s really doing so much better than it used to because I’m able to just do this so I can give it my energy and my passion, but it has been a lifelong project.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:12]
A lifelong project. Yes. Well, you are doing incredible things and if people want to find you, they can go right to your website, which is https://www.equineassistedtherapyofnj.org/.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:31:27]
Alyssa Scolari: [00:31:30]
Okay. And I will definitely link that in the show notes for people. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.
Jeanne Mahoney: [00:31:39]
Thank you. Very excited. Thanks.
Alyssa Scolari: [00:49:01]
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